Bioshock Infinite

Jarnin_sl · Mar 31, 2013

Booker DeWitt: born in America, 1875
Ryan: born in Russia (no date given)

Rapture construction began in 1946, finished in 1951. Ryan died in 1960.

If DeWitt = Ryan, that would make him 85 years old when Jack kills him in Rapture.
Ryan's model in Bioshock looks to be in his late 50's to mid 60's.

I seriously doubt that DeWitt = Ryan

Elizabeth and DeWitt apparently visit Rapture after the 1958 new years event, because Rapture is fucked up (whether that's because the developers decided to use existing assets from Bioshock 1 so they didn't have to recreate Rapture from scratch, or if they planned it that way is unknown). However, the bathysphere network being locked down, and DeWitt and Elizabeth being able to access it after that had happened is a pretty minor plot hole. And as far as we know, it was locked down after DeWitt and Elizabeth use a bathysphere to leave Rapture.

That's the problem with multiverse spacetime travel. Anything that can happen, does happen.

Dandai · Mar 31, 2013

Jarnin_sl said:
Booker DeWitt: born in America, 1875
Ryan: born in Russia (no date given)

Rapture construction began in 1946, finished in 1951. Ryan died in 1960.

If DeWitt = Ryan, that would make him 85 years old when Jack kills him in Rapture.
Ryan's model in Bioshock looks to be in his late 50's to mid 60's.

I seriously doubt that DeWitt = Ryan

Elizabeth and DeWitt apparently visit Rapture after the 1958 new years event, because Rapture is fucked up (whether that's because the developers decided to use existing assets from Bioshock 1 so they didn't have to recreate Rapture from scratch, or if they planned it that way is unknown). However, the bathysphere network being locked down, and DeWitt and Elizabeth being able to access it after that had happened is a pretty minor plot hole. And as far as we know, it was locked down after DeWitt and Elizabeth use a bathysphere to leave Rapture.

That's the problem with multiverse spacetime travel. Anything that can happen, does happen.

I'm not even trying to be funny: Are you seriously quoting dates inthisgame.Seriously?

TrollfaceDeux · Mar 31, 2013

Jarnin_sl said:
Booker DeWitt: born in America, 1875
Ryan: born in Russia (no date given)

Rapture construction began in 1946, finished in 1951. Ryan died in 1960.

If DeWitt = Ryan, that would make him 85 years old when Jack kills him in Rapture.
Ryan's model in Bioshock looks to be in his late 50's to mid 60's.

I seriously doubt that DeWitt = Ryan

Elizabeth and DeWitt apparently visit Rapture after the 1958 new years event, because Rapture is fucked up (whether that's because the developers decided to use existing assets from Bioshock 1 so they didn't have to recreate Rapture from scratch, or if they planned it that way is unknown). However, the bathysphere network being locked down, and DeWitt and Elizabeth being able to access it after that had happened is a pretty minor plot hole. And as far as we know, it was locked down after DeWitt and Elizabeth use a bathysphere to leave Rapture.

That's the problem with multiverse spacetime travel. Anything that can happen, does happen.

It's all just speculation. Constants and variable indicates that anything is, was, and will be (as you said). There are constants (what I said couple times) and variables (time, gender, age, era, place, etc). DeWitt doesn't row the boat. It has already been. That's constant. Who is to say that the Elizabeth's version of Rapture is the same Rapture that we have played? we don't know for shit, but it can't be ruled out either. It's a grey area. That's why it's a fun discussion, though it could be meaningless as fuck. Anything goes, but constants remain. And all the constants pointed to Baptism--focal breaking point. As Fitzroy eloquently puts it, "take out the weed from its roots." Everything fits. This game is amazing.

Ninen · Mar 31, 2013

The Constants and Variables idea is nothing new for folks who've read Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion/Multiverse stuff.

The story can be wildly different, as can the name attached to the hero (or jester, or anti-hero, or <insert archetype here>) but there WILL be a hero (or jester, or or or....) and whatever their folly or triumph is, some form of it will happen again.

Sutekh · Mar 31, 2013

Trollface_sl said:
It's all just speculation. Constants and variable indicates that anything is, was, and will be (as you said). There are constants (what I said couple times) and variables (time, gender, age, era, place, etc). DeWitt doesn't row the boat. It has already been. That's constant. Who is to say that the Elizabeth's version of Rapture is the same Rapture that we have played? we don't know for shit, but it can't be ruled out either. It's a grey area. That's why it's a fun discussion, though it could be meaningless as fuck. Anything goes, but constants remain. And all the constants pointed to Baptism--focal breaking point. As Fitzroy eloquently puts it, "take out the weed from its roots." Everything fits. This game is amazing.

It's exactly it, that's why the theme of the game is "Constants and Variables" Constants: There's always a city, there's always a man, Variables: Sometimes it's Columbia, sometimes it's Rapture.

Jarnin_sl · Mar 31, 2013

Dandai_sl said:
I'm not even trying to be funny: Are you seriously quoting dates inthisgame.Seriously?

Dates are useful. They're constants, and they're a good way to determine the paths between different events from a time traveler's personal timeline and an outside observer's timeline.

Trollface_sl said:
Who is to say that the Elizabeth's version of Rapture is the same Rapture that we have played? we don't know for shit, but it can't be ruled out either.

That's a fair point. Rapture in Infinite was seemingly identical to the one we saw in Bioshock 1, which meant that DeWitt and Elizabeth either traveled to the original Rapture, or one that hadn't branched off too drastically to have been noticeably different in the brief time we see it. Either way, it tied the series together really fucking well.

Trollface_sl said:
And all the constants pointed to Baptism--focal breaking point. As Fitzroy eloquently puts it, "take out the weed from its roots."

Hrm. I understood it as DeWitt's Baptism being the stem. The branches are how that event changes everything in future realities, and the roots are the events that culminated in DeWitt being baptized (or not baptized).
The thing is, there are two stems! In one reality DeWitt doesn't get baptised, becomes a drinker and a gambler, meets a lady and has Annabelle. In another reality DeWitt chooses baptism, becomes Comstock and uses the time-travel twins to convince his alternate self to give up his child. That's a variable that has to be made into a constant for the story to end, which is why all the alternate Elizabeths downed his ass; they reset the event and created a constant, where DeWitt doesn't give up Annabelle to Comstock and completely changes his future, apparently in all future realities.

By the end of the game, they've reset everything. DeWitt's not going through with the baptism is no longer a variable, it's a constant. That's the time-traveling twin's experiment; can they change what had been, is, and will be a variable, into a constant.

Anyway, that's how I understood it.

Vaclav · Mar 31, 2013

On the "twins" above - they're cross dimensional clones - not twins. Complete opposites besides a few shared constants

Sutekh · Mar 31, 2013

Aside from the entire discussion we've been having I need to say that never before in any video game have I ever been hit so hard. Even days later I'm still kind of sad about what happened to Elizabeth. Sad that the Elizabeth that everyone loves will never exist. It's a happy ending because Anna will never be tortured, locked in a cage, experimented on, have a father that loves and cares for her, but the girl that wanted to just stand there and dance, or eat cotton candy, pick locks, use her vast knowledge of quantum mechanics to explain things, will never exist and she's gone forever. It's the most bitter sweet thing I've ever experienced in my life.

Sean_sl · Mar 31, 2013

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...#post413899216

The Luteces: This one is pretty much all out of audio logs, which is a shame. Comstock meets a young Rosalind Lutece some time after his Baptism, she has an amazing new technology that will allow cities to fly, it also allows you to look into and eventually even travel to other dimensions. Part of this discovery involves making contact with her "brother" a male version of her doing similar work in another world. Eventually Rosalind is able to bring Robert into her world and while he suffers as a result, nose bleeds, twisted memories etc. etc, he recovers and they begin working together.

Meanwhile Comstock is now drunk on his own Prophet-hood. He has been using the rifts to look into other worlds, both their past and their future. He sees what he thinks is his future and derives a "Prophecy" from it. About his heir ascending the throne and bringing fire to the mountains of man (Spoilers: apocalypse). It seems like Comstock in the game buys his own fiction, he really believes an angel talked to him when he was demension scouting. So he finds a down on her luck woman, fills her to the gills with dogma and marries her, all set to do some begetting

Terrible News Everyone! Mucking about in multidimensional space has rendered Comstock sterile, no heir for him!

Good News Everyone! Comstock has found a world where a version of him has a child. This version of him is a drunk and a gambler! How is it fair that such a godless sinner has been gifted a child while Comstock is forsook? Let's fix that!

Comstock, along with the Luteces arrange to buy Anne from Booker and bring her into their world. They do so, but alas Mrs. Comstock is unthrilled. She is not so brainwashed that she can believe she concived a child in a single week and has no memory of it. Initially she takes Elizabeth for the product of some liaison between Comstock and Rosalind. However when she confronts Ms. Lutece the ever pragmatic Rosalind simply tells her the truth. Lady Comstock is dumbstruck, and after some soul searching she presents her husband with an ultimatum, tell the truth and beg forgiveness or she'll blab. Comstock just has her killed, cause he's a nutter.

Meanwhile! Robert Lutece has gotten wind of the same future that Comstock has seen in his prophecy. Being somewhat more affectionate than his sister, he is not cool with letting the world burn, even if it's only one of a billion, billion worlds. He insists that the child be returned to her own world and his sister relents. They go to Comstock, but cause Comstock is still a nutter he pays Fink to sabotage their equipment.

The sabotage works and the Luteces appear to be killed, however they start to reappear several days later. There's a log from Rosalind in their lab which describes them as not dead, but rather trapped in "probability space," whatever that is. The implication seems to be that they are still able to rift walk, but they're are limited in how much they can interact with the world.

Undeterred Robert begins working on a way to prevent the calamity they set in motion. He devises a plan to bring a Booker DeWitt into their world and pit him against Comstock in the hopes of prying Elizabeth away from him. His sister agrees to go along with it and they give it a try, and another, and another.

They try a lot. Remember the slate board at the start of the game when you flip a coin? Remember how many tally marks there were? This is the source of the "ocean," the endless continuum of worlds, light houses, Bookers and Comstocks. It's the Luteces searching the annals of probability for a string in which Booker succeeds, Elizabeth is unchained and the Comstock personality can be quashed, allowing the loops to close and absolving poor Robert's conscience.

This is of course the thread that the Player Character experiences, cause who would want to play all the ones where you failed?

Also yes, the entire game is a sad little ginger boy come nascent god attempting to assuage his guilt.

Moral: Audio Logs are a stupid way to convey major plot details just so the tards with zero attention span can get back to shooting stuff.

Rapture is not an Alt Verse Columbia, because this story is really all about Robert Lutece trying to fix the world and he has absolutely nothing to do with Rapture and the 1946-1960 events. The "constants" of always a man, always a city are referring specifically to there always being a male Booker DeWitt and the city of Columbia. They are not something that is variable. Rapture is a completely separate event that happens in every universe's future regardless of Columbia's events.

Caliane · Mar 31, 2013

Sean_sl said:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...#post413899216

Rapture is not an Alt Verse Columbia, because this story is really all about Robert Lutece trying to fix the world and he has absolutely nothing to do with Rapture and the 1946-1960 events. The "constants" of always a man, always a city are referring specifically to there always being a male Booker DeWitt and the city of Columbia. They are not something that is variable. Rapture is a completely separate event that happens in every universe's future regardless of Columbia's events.

Sean is right. Its an allusion. Rapture and Ryan/jack REPRESENT the city, the man, the lighthouse. But they are not the same people in a literal sense. The forbes article is entirely wrong on the Bathyoshperes. one of the key parts of his false premise. Stating only Ryan and family can use them. That is not correct. hes confusing them with the vitachambers. Bathyosheres are the prime method of travel in Rapture. the lighthouse is a welcome center. its built like an airport. why the hell would you build a public welcome center to greet only your close personal relatives?

It hasn't been mentioned much here. But yeah, the Luteces are a huge part of this story that is not brought up much. Robert being more affectionate is not entirely correct. Its not a pragmatic vs emotional issue. its a nihilism vs fatalism. Roselind believes "time is an ocean". Waves, swirls, crashing. "Why push the tide out, when it will just come back in?" "nothing matters"

A post on gaf is entirely correct.
"What I thought was interesting about the flipping of coins was how in every universe, Mr Lutece believes it will always fall on heads, but Miss Lutece seems intent on continually testing it to see if there is ever a different outcome - she doesn't believe the result can be predetermined and consistent.

Its another instance where Mr Lutece represents fatalism, and Miss Lutece represents nihilism - similar to their division on how to deal with the cyclical timelines. Mr Lutece believes there are truths and paths, where time is a river, and Miss Lutece believes that there are no inherent truths to the universe - time is an ocean.

Ultimately, both elements are represented. You end the game in the middle of the ocean, in an infinitely large expanse of lighthouses. Yet the place of Booker's baptism, where his timeline starts down its determined path and also meets his end, is in a river."

To add to that, rivers flow into the ocean.
This also then has possible implications for the after credits scene. up until that point, it would seem Robert is correct. The coin landing heads 123 times would imply, the universe is more deterministic. but Anna/booker somehow existing after his death, may be implying it didnt work?

xzi · Mar 31, 2013

Sutekh_sl said:
Aside from the entire discussion we've been having I need to say that never before in any video game have I ever been hit so hard. Even days later I'm still kind of sad about what happened to Elizabeth. Sad that the Elizabeth that everyone loves will never exist. It's a happy ending because Anna will never be tortured, locked in a cage, experimented on, have a father that loves and cares for her, but the girl that wanted to just stand there and dance, or eat cotton candy, pick locks, use her vast knowledge of quantum mechanics to explain things, will never exist and she's gone forever. It's the most bitter sweet thing I've ever experienced in my life.

Pretty much same here. The ending really did kind of have this terrible bittersweetness to it, where I totally loved it but it like.. broke my heart. lmao. I haven't played in a day or two but I've been replaying on 1999 and I'm paying far more attention to her and random shit throughout the world this time around. It's pretty astounding that a game can convey such feelings like that, that you oftentimes only find in really good movies. I'm quite impressed with it, and I hope Irrational games keeps expanding and bettering themselves, because wow!

wamphyr · Mar 31, 2013

Could someone link a good playthrough of this game ? I want one that focuses on the story. Thank you.

Jarnin_sl · Mar 31, 2013

wamphyr_sl said:
Could someone link a good playthrough of this game ? I want one that focuses on the story. Thank you.

A friend (who hasn't got a beefy computer) asked for the same thing yesterday, so I foundthis seriesfor him. There's no commentary by the player and it's in 720p, so the picture and sound is pretty good. Part 1 is like 97 minutes long, parts 2-44 are like 13 minutes long, with part 45 (the boss fight and ending) being about 40 minutes. So yeah, it's like 13 hours long, but you could probably skip through some of the longer fights and just move on to the story elements easy enough.

supertouch_sl · Mar 31, 2013

Caliane_sl said:
Sean is right. Its an allusion. Rapture and Ryan/jack REPRESENT the city, the man, the lighthouse. But they are not the same people in a literal sense. The forbes article is entirely wrong on the Bathyoshperes. one of the key parts of his false premise. Stating only Ryan and family can use them. That is not correct. hes confusing them with the vitachambers. Bathyosheres are the prime method of travel in Rapture. the lighthouse is a welcome center. its built like an airport. why the hell would you build a public welcome center to greet only your close personal relatives?

It hasn't been mentioned much here. But yeah, the Luteces are a huge part of this story that is not brought up much. Robert being more affectionate is not entirely correct. Its not a pragmatic vs emotional issue. its a nihilism vs fatalism. Roselind believes "time is an ocean". Waves, swirls, crashing. "Why push the tide out, when it will just come back in?" "nothing matters"

A post on gaf is entirely correct.
"What I thought was interesting about the flipping of coins was how in every universe, Mr Lutece believes it will always fall on heads, but Miss Lutece seems intent on continually testing it to see if there is ever a different outcome - she doesn't believe the result can be predetermined and consistent.

Its another instance where Mr Lutece represents fatalism, and Miss Lutece represents nihilism - similar to their division on how to deal with the cyclical timelines. Mr Lutece believes there are truths and paths, where time is a river, and Miss Lutece believes that there are no inherent truths to the universe - time is an ocean.

Ultimately, both elements are represented. You end the game in the middle of the ocean, in an infinitely large expanse of lighthouses. Yet the place of Booker's baptism, where his timeline starts down its determined path and also meets his end, is in a river."

To add to that, rivers flow into the ocean.
This also then has possible implications for the after credits scene. up until that point, it would seem Robert is correct. The coin landing heads 123 times would imply, the universe is more deterministic. but Anna/booker somehow existing after his death, may be implying it didnt work?

andrew ryan restricted bathysphere access to relatives after the city fell into chaos

Zyke · Mar 31, 2013

Wow, this was a damn good game. It's rare to find a game where I find it difficult to actually tear myself away from it like this one, and the story was fantastic. The ending completely took me off guard and I really like how it tied things together but also left you scratching your head. It's also pretty rare to play a game and then go spend several hours reading articles and forums with explanations and interpretations of the ending, which has really been awesome, since they've pointed out several smaller details I missed because I missed audio recordings or things you just forget because they don't seem important at the time when you experience them.

Sutekh · Mar 31, 2013

Caliane_sl said:
Sean is right. Its an allusion. Rapture and Ryan/jack REPRESENT the city, the man, the lighthouse. But they are not the same people in a literal sense. The forbes article is entirely wrong on the Bathyoshperes. one of the key parts of his false premise. Stating only Ryan and family can use them. That is not correct. hes confusing them with the vitachambers. Bathyosheres are the prime method of travel in Rapture. the lighthouse is a welcome center. its built like an airport. why the hell would you build a public welcome center to greet only your close personal relatives?

It hasn't been mentioned much here. But yeah, the Luteces are a huge part of this story that is not brought up much. Robert being more affectionate is not entirely correct. Its not a pragmatic vs emotional issue. its a nihilism vs fatalism. Roselind believes "time is an ocean". Waves, swirls, crashing. "Why push the tide out, when it will just come back in?" "nothing matters"

A post on gaf is entirely correct.
"What I thought was interesting about the flipping of coins was how in every universe, Mr Lutece believes it will always fall on heads, but Miss Lutece seems intent on continually testing it to see if there is ever a different outcome - she doesn't believe the result can be predetermined and consistent.

Its another instance where Mr Lutece represents fatalism, and Miss Lutece represents nihilism - similar to their division on how to deal with the cyclical timelines. Mr Lutece believes there are truths and paths, where time is a river, and Miss Lutece believes that there are no inherent truths to the universe - time is an ocean.

Ultimately, both elements are represented. You end the game in the middle of the ocean, in an infinitely large expanse of lighthouses. Yet the place of Booker's baptism, where his timeline starts down its determined path and also meets his end, is in a river."

To add to that, rivers flow into the ocean.
This also then has possible implications for the after credits scene. up until that point, it would seem Robert is correct. The coin landing heads 123 times would imply, the universe is more deterministic. but Anna/booker somehow existing after his death, may be implying it didnt work?

No no, Sean think they're two completely different instances that have no relation to one another. I believe they're alternate versions of one another. They are the man, the city, the lighthouse of an alternate universe.

Sean_sl · Mar 31, 2013

Sutekh_sl said:
No no, Sean think they're two completely different instances that have no relation to one another. I believe they're alternate versions of one another. They are the man, the city, the lighthouse of an alternate universe.

The only relationship they have is that Columbia copied tech from future tears that looked into Rapture in the future. Rapture is not an alternate version of Columbia, it's half a century ahead of Columbia in the timeline andbothcities exist in every universe.

Modo_sl · Mar 31, 2013

Found this on the bioshock reddit, but it really helped piece some things together that I missed, spoilered for spoilers and size!

The one thing I think I missed is below, can anyone fill me in?

Where did the Siphon come from? Was that just an invention by the Lutece(s)?

Sutekh · Mar 31, 2013

Modo_sl said:
Found this on the bioshock reddit, but it really helped piece some things together that I missed, spoilered for spoilers and size!

The one thing I think I missed is below, can anyone fill me in?

Where did the Siphon come from? Was that just an invention by the Lutece(s)?