Diablo 4 / IV / IIII / Fore / Cope / Seethe

zombiewizardhawk

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I guess games just started being "buggy pieces of shit" and all that other jazz recently, too. Definitely don't remember any games ever being shit or buggy or wastes of money back in the good ole days...

Also, pre-ordering 15 years ago was $5 but you still had to pay full price to play the game when it came out. "Here, take my $5 just so you know that i'll give you $60 when the release date rolls around so make sure you make that disc for me!" is somehow better than "Here, take my $60 so that I can download the game when it releases since i'd give you that $60 on release day anyways"?
 
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Utnayan

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At least I won’t be paying 60 bucks to do these woke fucking nut jobs job for them and keep them employed, who are diversity hired to shit and back forming a union for QA low totem pole minimum wage McDonald’s work to protect their sorry asses from getting fired before they should have even been hired in the first place while thinking they should be paid 150k a year with free fucking housing. And these mentally Ill nut jobs can’t even do that right without 15 breaks every four hours and access to anti aids pills and therapy dogs.

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Chris

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That has entirely too much to do with POE's bloat and not the currency system itself. If there were only 3 or 4 currencies you wouldn't have that issue since the number of things you can do with them is similarly limited.

Honestly, Blizzard wouldn't even have to go that far. They could have ONE goddamn "currency" that dropped, call it Demon Blood or some shit, and just have varying costs of how much Demon Blood it took to modify certain items from a list at the crafting bench. If Demon Blood is a tradeable resource then you are now in a position where every kill has meaning towards a goal and not just "gee I hope this drops the one in a million/billion item with all the mods I'm looking for!"
How about calling it "gold"?
 
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Nola

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I never understood why people bitch about preordering a game. Even if a game costs $70 - 100 to pre order and it sucks I don’t bitch any longer. If it can give me a minimum 30 hours of playtime I’m good. Last game I recall bitching about a game was Wolcen which was a piece of buggy shit. Hell the amount I sometimes spend money going out with friends buying rounds of drinks and food when I have to in a few hours costs me more. If it ever starts to bother me maybe I need a cheaper hobby.
 
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TJT

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I never understood why people bitch about preordering a game. Even if a game costs $70 - 100 to pre order and it sucks I don’t bitch any longer. If it can give me a minimum 30 hours of playtime I’m good. Last game I recall bitching about a game was Wolcen which was a piece of buggy shit. Hell the amount I sometimes spend money going out with friends buying rounds of drinks and food when I have to in a few hours costs me more. If it ever starts to bother me maybe I need a cheaper hobby.
This is the adult problem.

Spending $70 on a happy hour for like 2 hours of your time and you think nothing of it. But if its a video game you god damned need that 100+ hours for your money or its a piece of shit right?

Definitely matters more if you're younger and broke but when I was young and broke I just pirated all my games. But it was the principle!
 
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Xevy

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I used to equate games with movies. A movie was like $10 (the good ol' days of 5 years ago) and was 2 hours. So if I got an ENJOYABLE 12 hours out of a $60 game it was worth it. Obviously that seems a little low and I really aimed for more like 24 hours for a game. Now I'd say I wouldn't feel good buying any game over $30 if I don't get at least 24 hours worth of playtime. Sons of the Forest was like $35 and the goons I play with rushed it so I got like 12 hours out of it. That was a feel bad.

Good, bad, or mediocre (this one) D4 will easily net 50-100 hours of gameplay so $60 or $70 is probably worth it for me personally. It's just going to be the fact that this game is going to be a disappointing and very medium 100+ hours that will suck.
 

Rod-138

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Just buy the game, play with some friends, neighbors, and coworkers. If it sucks, then I’m sure you’ll still get more entertainment than I do for a round of golf that’s more expensive. Jesus titty Christ, people.

None of the half ass games do well enough to compete financially with the companies that put out bangers like Elden Ring; even though the blue hair is powerful at blizzard, the green is always more powerful and they have motivation to put something out worth a fuck, it’ll be good, probably not great.
 
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Fogel

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Just like to correct one thing for the record, back in the day before patches, we referred to bugs as "features"
 
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Mizake

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Honestly with inflation at the rate it is now a video game for $70 seems like a bargain at this point. Meals cost me about $40-50 for 2 people now. Even Starbucks is like $20 for 2 drinks and 2 snacks. Get the games while they are still at $70 since I have a sneaky feeling they are going to go up even more this year.
 
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Tearofsoul

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If you are pre-ordering, might as well just get the $100 ultimate edition with battlepass bonus, mount, etc.
 
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popsicledeath

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Honestly, if you've ever spent money on any unrelated social event you may as well pre-order 3 copies and not complain if the game is mediocre. Bad first dates can cost more than getting early access to open beta for pre-ordering, so no point complaining about the state of Blizzard or the gaming industry as a whole. Makes sense, guys, it's not 1999!
 
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OU Ariakas

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How about calling it "gold"?

Dev Diary: Rethinking Gold as a Currency​

Path of Exile’s economy is the most important element of the game to us. It’s why we designed it to be played exclusively online. We examined the economies of other online RPGs and looked at how players interacted with each other in trade. In order to make gold a viable currency, the developers created many artificial sinks that do not have any real gameplay benefit. In some games, rather than using these built-in gold systems, players seem to prefer to barter item-for-item, inventing their own currencies and relative values. This development diary entry describes how we used these lessons to design the trade systems in Path of Exile.
The Traditional Gold Economy
Gold has several consequences in an action RPG setting:
  • Gold Sinks: Games that use gold incur high inflation unless they have sufficient gold sinks in the form of mandatory expenses such as item repairs, paying to revive characters or continuously buying potions. These sinks are generally an unnecessary obligation and can be frustrating if a player is low on gold.
  • Gold Farmers: Online RPGs often get infested by gold farmers who play the game to accumulate large quantities of gold that are then sold to other players. If gold is the main currency, it’s very simple to perform gold-accumulating tasks to supply the secondary market.
  • Wealth Determinism: Earning a steady quantity of gold from monsters killed helps to re-enforce the treadmill feeling that many online RPGs suffer. People’s net worth in gold is directly proportional to the amount of time they have invested playing. This highly linear wealth gain can cause a sense of disillusionment when trying to save up a large amount of gold for a purchase – it’s apparent to the player how long it’s going to take to grind for it.
  • Trade Parity: With a common gold currency, it’s easy for players to know and demand the current market value for an item. If the trade occurs at a value that differs from the current perceived market value, then one of the players feels that they got ripped off.
Bartering Currency Items
In online RPGs where gold is too easy to obtain, we observed players trading certain items as currency and ignoring the underlying gold. Some examples are the “Globs of Ectoplasm” in Guild Wars and the “Stone of Jordan” and “High Rune” economies in Diablo II.
We found that successful game pseudo-currencies have four characteristics:
  • Homogeneity: Each unit of the currency has to be equivalent to other units. They should stack together, and there should never be a reason for a player to discriminate between two different units of that currency.
  • Utility: The individual currency items have specific uses in addition to their trade value. If the recipient of the currency item is able to use it to improve their character, then it’s even better for them to trade for. The economic value represented by its scarcity is just an added bonus so that they are able to on-trade it if they decide not to consume it themselves.
  • Scarcity: The currency should not be trivial to find. Some popular in-game barter items represent days or weeks of playing, and provide meaningful trade material for very high-end items. Other barter items are more common (cropping up every half hour or more) and allow for granularity with lower value trades.
  • Handleability: It should be convenient to transport or transact with a large portion of your net worth as currency.
These three factors help make a currency acceptable. If a currency is arbitrary (players are told “this is what you should use to trade with”) but it isn’t useful, homogeneous or particularly scarce, then it’s possible they’ll pick some other currency that feels more appropriate to them. It’s important for game designers to predict the encouraged player behavior and to make sure that behavior is enjoyable.
We examined how a currency item system affects the previously mentioned consequences of a gold based economy:
  • Sinks: By having every currency item inherently useful to improve a character, each currency item is its own sink. In our experience with Path of Exile, a majority of currency item trades end with the item being immediately consumed by the recipient. This also means that unnecessary gold sinks like repairing items can potentially be removed from the game.
  • Gold Farmers: Although it’s still possible to farm currency items with unskilled labour, it’s substantially more complicated. Having to manage an inventory of dozens of different items with fluctuating rarities is a much larger ordeal that is difficult to deploy en-masse. Real players won't have a problem with this because they know more about the game.
  • Wealth Determinism: A character’s wealth is determined by the sum of both his available currency items and also any items that he may have for trade. The unpredictable acquisition of both currency items and trade-worthy equipment helps mask the treadmill feeling that occurs when you can predict your gold gain per quest or per minute.
  • Trade Parity: The relative value of currency items fluctuates constantly as new and interesting applications are found for them. It’s also subjective for each player – they all have own current item goals and each currency item may help them achieve that goal in a different way. Players can accept these barter trades because they either meet an immediate need for a currency item to use or because the items are of roughly equal value and can be later traded to someone else.
Path of Exile's Currency Items
Our implementation of this concept embraces it fully. While killing monsters in Path of Exile, you occasionally find currency items. There are currently over a dozen different types and this number will probably grow to 25 by release. It’s worth pointing out that these items are not for sale in our microtransaction store – they’re entirely in-game currency found and traded for by players.
Our currency items meet the three criteria of good game barter currencies. They are homogeneous and handleable (you can stack them). They are useful (each performs a specific action on an item or a character) and they are substantially scarcer than gold. Some of them are relatively common – you’ll probably find at least one per half hour of playing. Others are rarer, taking potentially days of gameplay to find, if you’re lucky. A few are so valuable that casual players may never find them, but only hear of them in high-end trades.
Each currency item performs a function that can help improve your character. Some examples from our current alpha version, in order of rarity, are:
  • Scroll of Wisdom: Identifies a magic, rare or unique item. People actually do trade these.
  • Whetstone: Increases the quality of a weapon. For example, it can upgrade a +10% damage sword to +13%. These quality values cap at 20%.
  • Armour Shard: Increases the quality of an armour piece.
  • Orb of Augmentation: Adds a mod to a magic item that has only one prefix or suffix. For example, it could turn Short Sword of Frost into Sharp Short Sword of Frost.
  • Orb of Transmutation: Upgrades a base item into a magic item. It could turn a Recurve Bow into a Burning Recurve Bow of Anger.
  • Jeweler’s Orb: Randomises the socket arrangement on an item.
  • Orb of Alchemy: Upgrades a base item into a rare item.
  • Chaos Sphere: Rerolls a rare item to have new random properties.
  • Exalted Orb: Adds a mod to a rare item, if it has less than the maximum.
Results from Testing
So far, we’re very pleased with the results of this system. Because of the pseudorandom slot-machine-like nature of currency item drops, players get a rush from finding them. We keep hearing players excitedly showing off the valuable orbs they have found. This is more rewarding than slowly grinding up their gold value until it hits 100,000.
Players seem very keen to trade their currency items with each other. Because they all have their own metrics for how much each effect is worth, it’s common to see quite complex barters occurring with several different types of currency items.
Recently I was trying to upgrade my rare sword in Path of Exile. I had two Chaos Spheres available, which could reroll its mods randomly. While I was certain that I could improve the terrible mods that it had currently, I was apprehensive about potentially wasting my most powerful currency items. I asked around and found another tester who was happy to offer me a substantially better sword in exchange for those two Chaos Spheres. I knew that it’d take an extremely lucky roll to beat the mods on his sword, so I accepted the trade. What was in it for him? He really wanted to reroll his bow and already had a better sword than the one he traded to me.
Some players immediately use all their currency items on the spot to improve their character. These players generally have quite powerful characters and items, but are always low on actual currency items to trade. They’re often seen trading powerful upgraded items for currency, in an attempt to reroll/upgrade other items and fuel their addiction.
Other players prefer to save up all their currency items and rely on trading them for specific desired items. These risk-averse players often have several weak items on their character, but a powerful amount of disposable currency for purchasing great items when they crop up in trade. They can also perform substantial spot-rerolling if they really need something in a hurry.
Because we’re not using gold like other games, we were able to re-evaluate each of the game mechanics commonly used as a gold sink. We found that almost without exception, they are all negative mechanics that impose a burden on the player and don’t increase enjoyment. We scrapped the concept of repairing items. Our flasks can be refilled so you don’t need to buy dozens of them each time you travel to town. We don’t tax your currency when you die. Rather than charging large gold fees to perform certain actions like rerolling an item, we offer it in the form of a currency item you can find over time or trade for.
We haven’t had any players ask where the gold is. We honestly thought that people would be very uneasy with a gold-less game, but so far our testers have understood and enjoyed this system.
We are still uncertain about whether it’s worth including something like gold coins as a very low-tier currency item to help ease players into the system. If we did, they’d be itemized (and stackable) so that it’s not practical to carry too many (and would generally be spent on low-end staple items to help the player in the first few acts). We’ll hopefully be able to make a decision soon after more playtesting.
While talking about the game economy, it’s worth noting that we’re strongly opposed to any form of binding of items. Some games cite it as an effective item sink, but we believe that the inability to trade an item after use greatly hinders the economy. We want players to be able to trade for an extremely valuable item without taking a massive hit to their net worth by equipping it.
In the near future we’ll update the Path of Exile site with more information about the functionality of currency items planned at release.
Posted by Chris
on Feb 7, 2011, 6:00:00 PM
Grinding Gear Games
 
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Utnayan

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Just because we all probably have lots of expendable income doesn't mean some of us just throw cash at something, getting mediocre at best entertainment value due to the hours played from a company not worth a shit. That is the most useless justification to mediocre at best entertainment dollar > value I have ever seen (Subjective value here obviously), and usually rears its' head only in video games and carries with it stupid analogies of bars or food or "nights out on the town".

We all have the expendable income to hire a vegas hooker super model to jam our dick into a blender. It doesn't mean you are going to choose that option and say "Well shit, I could have spent the same with my wife at Edge Steakhouse. Fun times bros!"

Carry on.
 
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Janx

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Play the beta consumer! Receive your prize!

N43ZLDK6HAMM1677608077080.gif


Every time I think about getting it I look at the prices/tiers and just nope out.
Fuck this noise.
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zombiewizardhawk

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I don't understand what all the crying is about, honestly. If you don't want to play the game, ever, then don't buy it. If you don't want to pre-order it then don't pre-order it. If you don't want to buy it until 6 months after release so you can read 800000 reviews on exactly how shitty it is or not, then wait 6 months.

When people point out companies (not just game companies either, lol) have been doing the same shit for decades the whiners go off on random tangents to try and act like this is some special affront or unique situation.
 
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Szeth

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I don't understand what all the crying is about, honestly. If you don't want to play the game, ever, then don't buy it. If you don't want to pre-order it then don't pre-order it. If you don't want to buy it until 6 months after release so you can read 800000 reviews on exactly how shitty it is or not, then wait 6 months.

When people point out companies (not just game companies either, lol) have been doing the same shit for decades the whiners go off on random tangents to try and act like this is some special affront or unique situation.
If this was all accepted by the forum than we would never discuss games, only the horrible politics you all have.
 
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Penance

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As I get older I think less about how much time/per dollar I'm getting out of games since all games are a waste of time anyway. I'd rather spend 100$ for high quality 2 hours of drunk gaming goof off time then 30$ for mediocre 100 hour meh fest
 
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zombiewizardhawk

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If this was all accepted by the forum than we would never discuss games, only the horrible politics you all have.

That's only half true. All this hate-filled outrage screaming only pertains to a handful of games/companies. Granted I haven't read the entire BG3 thread but I haven't seen anyone in there crying about how outrageous it is that it's been sold as early access for years. Last Epoch thread same situation. I'm sure there's a bunch of others, too.