Dune (2020)

lol badass sand ngz

Tmac said:

There's a big gap between setting a foundation and explaining literally everything to the reader.

If you think that's what I'm saying, you're being obtuse.

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The book explains in a general way how the main factions relate to one another, and how spice relates to everything through exposition and inner monologues. If you want to understand how all the tech and stuff works or a even a more general history, they never really explain a lot of that. You do get small snippets of some of that, but a lot of it will always be vague.

I think that's more the appeal of it, a totally alien universe that you have to figure out from the available text. The more background they give and explain the less satisfying it would be.

chaos said:

I think that's more the appeal of it, a totally alien universe that you have to figure out from the available text. The more background they give and explain the less satisfying it would be.

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Right, but I can see why some people wouldn't necessarily enjoy that kind of storytelling. Malazan is polarizing for similar reasons. Stuff is happening and you get some exposition if it's kind of critical to what's happening and otherwise you just have to go with it.

Sterling said:

Right, but I can see why some people wouldn't necessarily enjoy that kind of storytelling. Malazan is polarizing for similar reasons. Stuff is happening and you get some exposition if it's kind of critical to what's happening and otherwise you just have to go with it.

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Yeah, I can see that. And people can enjoy both kinds of storytelling in specific instances, it's fine. More and more recently I tend towards the kind of stories that force you to put it together yourself, but I still like LotR or whatever.

But I think that maybe what Tmac says might help, being prepared for what you are in store for. It helps in something ultra-detailed such as GoT to understand that yes, you will have to hear a lot about meals and foods you've never heard of and shit, just power through.

Deathwing said:

Malazan spoiled me on inorganic exposition. Now I'm always pointing out to my wife: these two characters are talking to each other like this for the audience; they already know what they are explaining.

Dune tells a story in similar fashion as Malazan? Will have to pick it up. All the shittalking of the later books made me weary.

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Sort of. You only get small bits of exposition from the particular character's PoV so like Malazan you kind of just have to go with it and try and put it together as you accumulate information. The 6 Frank books are good to excellent. I would however recommend stopping after those. It doesn't matter if you want to find out what happened after book 6. If you care enough just get it off a Wiki or something. The non Frank books make the Chris Tolkeinn stuff seem like masterpieces in comparison.

Malazan does some exposition but yeah, it's mostly people who know what they are talking about already talking to each other, so it's rough.

Dune isn't nearly as bad as that. They use some words and then typically describe them along the way, whereas you have to wait for an inference 3 books later in Malazan.

It's a great Sci-Fi book for sure, and it becomes a -super- page turner pretty early on, but you gotta get there first. The first like.. 80 pages? Are fairly slow, then it gets really solid. I'd check exact page numbers but a colleague at work borrowed my copy and then moved 7 hours away hah. Need to get that back at some point, though I just reread it last year.

Furry said:

Leto II in book 4 is probably the most interesting character in any book I've ever read. To avoid spoilers, the scope of the character and writing are so perfectly aligned that it becomes a concept that is difficult to wrap your mind around. I can definitely see how some would fail to see it, but he has layers to him that make you think about everything it is to be human.

Truly great writing.

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I can't like this comment enough. God Emperor Leto is the reason I re-read these books every few years.

He's a concept I've never seen explored in any other book, let alone explored so well.

Sterling said:

Sort of. You only get small bits of exposition from the particular character's PoV so like Malazan you kind of just have to go with it and try and put it together as you accumulate information. The 6 Frank books are good to excellent. I would however recommend stopping after those. It doesn't matter if you want to find out what happened after book 6. If you care enough just get it off a Wiki or something. The non Frank books make the Chris Tolkeinn stuff seem like masterpieces in comparison.

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This. NEVER read the shit by Herbert's son. It will taint all your memories of the series and make you hate sci fi itself for a time. They are the worst things I've ever read.

Thats why a great creation must have balance. Balance in all things.

In digital media entertainment, or more specifically a novel, you must have a plan. You have to know where you are going, where you will end up. Its also beneficial to just let your ideas flow and somewhat allow the story to tell itself, as it produces unexpected story elements which could lead to outcomes unforeseen. BUT you still have to have an overall map of all of your major plot points, along with a solid and clearly defined conclusion. That way you can address each thread and see it through, while also producing a satisfying finish. This works even if you just kind of winged it with the middle of the story, developing the conflict event and subsequent redemption and climax on the fly. As long as you know how and why the story ends, and dont leave any glaring plot holes, chances are that book/story will be good regardless of the content.

OG Dune was amazing because of how powerful the descriptive elements were combined with the harsh environment. It really made you understand the challenges and dynamics associated with lording over a barren desert world.

Furry said:

I'd call the non frank books tolerably mediocre. They are on par with star wars EU books in being just not good for the most part. I did enjoy #7 on the main series some, and with the pacing I do believe his claim there was a full outline and notes. To bad I don't believe his claim of a stash of a material extended to the finale in #8, as it becomes very disorganized and a lot of threads are left dangling and unsatisfied.

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I just can't agree with the first sentence. Most of the Star Wars EU is terrible garbage, so I guess that's a reasonable comparison although your conclusion with them being tolerably mediocre is interesting. In fairness I've only read a few of the non Frank books because I wanted to know what happens after book 6. It's just bad. It's mostly nonsensical garbage and painfully shitty prose.

Some of the elements in the beginning of son's books are interesting. The early cyborg stuff.

I *hate* how he shoehorned his pulp d-list sci fi garbage into being the main unknown antagonist. I hate how he took every interesting technology or concept in the Dune universe and overexplained it in some terribly unsatisfying technobabble way.

What episodes 1-3 did to The Force with midichlorians, the son's books did to every interesting aspect of the Dune universe. Every unique thing about the Dune universe that you wondered, how does that work, how did that get that way? He has an answer for it, and its a really dumb answer. A midichlorian grade answer.

And his ending is just so bad, so incredibly bad, like the worst ending in all of sci fi bad. It makes the ending to The Stand look like a literary masterpiece. It makes the GoT TV ending look like the pinnacle of writing.

There is almost nothing I actively regret reading. I truly and sincerely wish I'd never read this garbage, but read it I did, all of it. Some of the earlier books twice, hoping I'd missed some hidden genius.

Fuck those books are terrible.

Aldarion said:

Some of the elements in the beginning of son's books are interesting. The early cyborg stuff.

I *hate* how he shoehorned his pulp d-list sci fi garbage into being the main unknown antagonist. I hate how he took every interesting technology or concept in the Dune universe and overexplained it in some terribly unsatisfying technobabble way.

What episodes 1-3 did to The Force with midichlorians, the son's books did to every interesting aspect of the Dune universe. Every unique thing about the Dune universe that you wondered, how does that work, how did that get that way? He has an answer for it, and its a really dumb answer. A midichlorian grade answer.

And his ending is just so bad, so incredibly bad, like the worst ending in all of sci fi bad. It makes the ending to The Stand look like a literary masterpiece. It makes the GoT TV ending look like the pinnacle of writing.

There is almost nothing I actively regret reading. I truly and sincerely wish I'd never read this garbage, but read it I did, all of it. Some of the earlier books twice, hoping I'd missed some hidden genius.

Fuck those books are terrible.

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Yeah, I stopped after 3 or 4 books because they were so bad. I wanted to find out what happened after book 6, and then I hoped there would be improvement and it just never happened. Like I said earlier, people would be much better off just checking a Wiki if they care that much about what happens later.