Everquest Legends

Mrniceguy

Mrniceguy

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moonarchia said:
No. Pay to skip tedium != p2w.
Click to expand...

You talk about tedium being pure EQ, but then defend XP pots and Jumbo store bags. Funny i don't remember Jumbo store bags or XP pots being pure EQ.

Buying XP potions is buying power. Any take otherwise is fucking retarded or bad faith.

I wish you the best of luck winning an expansion launch race without them.

Raids are time gated. The quicker you're powerful enough to beat them the more loot you get from them, the more loot you got the more powerful your toon is.
 
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moonarchia

moonarchia

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Flobee said:
I'd say there is a strong argument that if you're feeling the need to pay to skip "tedium" that they game was poorly designed... OR they add the tedium to get you to pay. The latter probably being far more likely. Thats the core argument against MTX, the game gets designed to maximize players reaching for the credit card instead of maximizing fun. Even cosmetics are corrosive to the game play experience.

I get it as an individual being willing to pay for this stuff, its your money so spend as you'd like, but IMO its unarguably true that these systems are a net negative on the development of games simply due to incentives.
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In a lot of cases that may be true. That is one of the mechanics gacha games use, which is why I don't play them anymore. EQL is EQ, though. Yes, DBG has an ROI they expect from all this, so they do have to monetize, but it's also based on a game that had camps that took weeks and months to get random shit to drop. If we're getting instances every day with the named mobs up, that is going to massively speed things up. If people feel the need to pay to have it done anyways, well, that's a them thing. I don't care either way, since it doesn't change anything for anyone else.

DBG doesn't have p2w in EQ. They sell xp pots, bags, and lots of xmog. Some of the xmogs have good buffs in them for lower levels, but that are nothing compared to current max level.
 
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moonarchia

moonarchia

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Mrniceguy said:
You talk about tedium being pure EQ, but then defend XP pots and Jumbo store bags. Funny i don't remember Jumbo store bags or XP pots being pure EQ.

Buying XP potions is buying power. Any take otherwise is fucking retarded or bad faith.

I wish you the best of luck winning an expansion launch race without them.

Raids are time gated. The quicker you're powerful enough to beat them the more loot you get from them, the more loot you got the more powerful your toon is.
Click to expand...
EQ sells xp pots and giant bags, and has for decades.

Who the fuck are you racing against? Any argument that xp pots are buying power is fucking retarded or bad faith.

Growth has an end point. When you reach it, you reach it. If you want to sprint there and pay extra, go for it. It doesn't affect anyone other than you.
 
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xmod2

xmod2

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moonarchia said:
Pay to skip tedium != p2w.
Click to expand...
Depends on the tedium and the 'goal'. XP pots fuel the server first races on TLPs, since having your team max level faster is a required advantage. A guild not abusing RMT/xp pots/warping will not win the race. In that case, they are pay to win, since USD is used to facilitate victory.

Personally I am all for spending money for QoL because I have more money than time. Just don't piss on my leg and tell me that it's raining. If you are against p2w in EQ you should be against any RMT / cash shop options that are not purely cosmetic.

fake edit: Here are some other things that are cash shop p2w on EQ tlp:
1- Buff pots (clarity/haste/etc) that do not remove on death and are always level appropriate.
2- Illusions that grant perma lev/EB/etc.
3- Cash shop mounts which allow for meditation while 'standing' in outdoor zones.
4- Bigger bags. More loot == more pp == ability to buy up powerful items faster than others. Also ability to convert faster to krono to pay off boxer armies for keys. 😇

Given a fixed amount of time T with a competitive goal, anything that allows you to do MORE in time T is de facto paying for power.

The only saving grace for EQL is that nobody is going to be racing for shit.
 
reavor

reavor

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Sounds interesting, anyone in beta? Everquest was always way too hard on soloing, and with such a long time past, letting old timers like me who dont have time to spend a day camping lower Guk, or organize a guild, to get a super character and just explore the world again sound fun. Strange no one has managed to do this yet
 
Flobee

Flobee

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reavor said:
Strange no one has managed to do this yet
Click to expand...
THJ fanboys right now
yoo wen GIF
 
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Kirun

Kirun

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People pretending XP pots aren't P2W is such a painfully boomerific, dad-gamer cope that it's honestly exhausting watching this argument get resurrected every single time a new game launches a cash shop.

P2W is not some mystical, impossible-to-define concept. It has a very objective, straightforward definition: can you spend real money to gain an in-game advantage tied to character progression, power, efficiency, access, or competitive positioning? If the answer is yes, congratulations, the game has P2W elements. This is not complicated. And before the usual crowd starts screeching "BUT IT'S JUST CONVENIENCE," let's stop pretending convenience isn't power in an MMORPG. In a persistent online world, time efficiency directly translates into progression advantage. Levels are character power, period. Faster leveling is faster power acquisition. Faster power acquisition means earlier access to contested content, raid targets, farming spots, economies, crafting monopolies, guild recruitment leverage, and server-first progression. Especially in old-school MMOs with open-world raid targets and long respawn timers, this matters immensely. The guilds and players who accelerate progression earliest gain a compounding advantage. They establish dominance faster, lock down content sooner, gear up earlier, monopolize valuable drops, and create a snowball effect that other players then struggle to catch up to.

So when someone buys XP pots and hits key level breakpoints significantly faster than everyone else, that isn't occurring in a vacuum. That advantage impacts the shared ecosystem around them. They get into high-value zones earlier. They get raid-ready sooner. They secure camps first. They establish economic control faster. They're competing for finite resources in a multiplayer environment, not playing a single-player RPG in isolation. That is literally a form of paying for competitive advantage.

Now, does that automatically mean XP pots are the worst form of P2W imaginable? No. There are obviously degrees to this stuff. Selling a +20 Sword of Wallet Destruction is worse than selling XP boosts. Selling raid gear outright is worse than both. Fine. That's a completely reasonable discussion to have. But the modern cope where people try to redefine P2W into "only buying max-level gear counts" is ridiculous revisionist nonsense invented by people who got so normalized and demoralized to cash shop monetization that they've completely lost the plot.

You don't have to think XP pots "ruin the game" to acknowledge they are objectively monetized progression advantage. That's what they are. Calling them "not P2W" because they're "just convenience" is basically admitting you don't understand how progression-based online games actually function.
 
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Burren

Burren

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The XP pot thing for EQL: sort of a non-issue since we can raid in our own instances with friends and it’s not a sweaty race to the boss.
 
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moonarchia

moonarchia

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xmod2 said:
Depends on the tedium and the 'goal'. XP pots fuel the server first races on TLPs, since having your team max level faster is a required advantage. A guild not abusing RMT/xp pots/warping will not win the race. In that case, they are pay to win, since USD is used to facilitate victory.

Personally I am all for spending money for QoL because I have more money than time. Just don't piss on my leg and tell me that it's raining. If you are against p2w in EQ you should be against any RMT / cash shop options that are not purely cosmetic.

fake edit: Here are some other things that are cash shop p2w on EQ tlp:
1- Buff pots (clarity/haste/etc) that do not remove on death and are always level appropriate.
2- Illusions that grant perma lev/EB/etc.
3- Cash shop mounts which allow for meditation while 'standing' in outdoor zones.
4- Bigger bags. More loot == more pp == ability to buy up powerful items faster than others. Also ability to convert faster to krono to pay off boxer armies for keys. 😇

Given a fixed amount of time T with a competitive goal, anything that allows you to do MORE in time T is de facto paying for power.

The only saving grace for EQL is that nobody is going to be racing for shit.
Click to expand...
Were there any powerful rewards for the racing on the TLPs, or was it just sperglords sperging?
 
Burren

Burren

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Kirun said:
People pretending XP pots aren't P2W is such a painfully boomerific, dad-gamer cope that it's honestly exhausting watching this argument get resurrected every single time a new game launches a cash shop.

P2W is not some mystical, impossible-to-define concept. It has a very objective, straightforward definition: can you spend real money to gain an in-game advantage tied to character progression, power, efficiency, access, or competitive positioning? If the answer is yes, congratulations, the game has P2W elements. This is not complicated. And before the usual crowd starts screeching "BUT IT'S JUST CONVENIENCE," let's stop pretending convenience isn't power in an MMORPG. In a persistent online world, time efficiency directly translates into progression advantage. Levels are character power, period. Faster leveling is faster power acquisition. Faster power acquisition means earlier access to contested content, raid targets, farming spots, economies, crafting monopolies, guild recruitment leverage, and server-first progression. Especially in old-school MMOs with open-world raid targets and long respawn timers, this matters immensely. The guilds and players who accelerate progression earliest gain a compounding advantage. They establish dominance faster, lock down content sooner, gear up earlier, monopolize valuable drops, and create a snowball effect that other players then struggle to catch up to.

So when someone buys XP pots and hits key level breakpoints significantly faster than everyone else, that isn't occurring in a vacuum. That advantage impacts the shared ecosystem around them. They get into high-value zones earlier. They get raid-ready sooner. They secure camps first. They establish economic control faster. They're competing for finite resources in a multiplayer environment, not playing a single-player RPG in isolation. That is literally a form of paying for competitive advantage.

Now, does that automatically mean XP pots are the worst form of P2W imaginable? No. There are obviously degrees to this stuff. Selling a +20 Sword of Wallet Destruction is worse than selling XP boosts. Selling raid gear outright is worse than both. Fine. That's a completely reasonable discussion to have. But the modern cope where people try to redefine P2W into "only buying max-level gear counts" is ridiculous revisionist nonsense invented by people who got so normalized and demoralized to cash shop monetization that they've completely lost the plot.

You don't have to think XP pots "ruin the game" to acknowledge they are objectively monetized progression advantage. That's what they are. Calling them "not P2W" because they're "just convenience" is basically admitting you don't understand how progression-based online games actually function.
Click to expand...
Yes, they are a measurable advantage. However, for Legends, they shouldn’t really matter except for people without patience, which is weird in EQ where it’s deliberately slow and everyone knows it.
 
moonarchia

moonarchia

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Kirun said:
People pretending XP pots aren't P2W is such a painfully boomerific, dad-gamer cope that it's honestly exhausting watching this argument get resurrected every single time a new game launches a cash shop.

P2W is not some mystical, impossible-to-define concept. It has a very objective, straightforward definition: can you spend real money to gain an in-game advantage tied to character progression, power, efficiency, access, or competitive positioning? If the answer is yes, congratulations, the game has P2W elements. This is not complicated. And before the usual crowd starts screeching "BUT IT'S JUST CONVENIENCE," let's stop pretending convenience isn't power in an MMORPG. In a persistent online world, time efficiency directly translates into progression advantage. Levels are character power, period. Faster leveling is faster power acquisition. Faster power acquisition means earlier access to contested content, raid targets, farming spots, economies, crafting monopolies, guild recruitment leverage, and server-first progression. Especially in old-school MMOs with open-world raid targets and long respawn timers, this matters immensely. The guilds and players who accelerate progression earliest gain a compounding advantage. They establish dominance faster, lock down content sooner, gear up earlier, monopolize valuable drops, and create a snowball effect that other players then struggle to catch up to.

So when someone buys XP pots and hits key level breakpoints significantly faster than everyone else, that isn't occurring in a vacuum. That advantage impacts the shared ecosystem around them. They get into high-value zones earlier. They get raid-ready sooner. They secure camps first. They establish economic control faster. They're competing for finite resources in a multiplayer environment, not playing a single-player RPG in isolation. That is literally a form of paying for competitive advantage.

Now, does that automatically mean XP pots are the worst form of P2W imaginable? No. There are obviously degrees to this stuff. Selling a +20 Sword of Wallet Destruction is worse than selling XP boosts. Selling raid gear outright is worse than both. Fine. That's a completely reasonable discussion to have. But the modern cope where people try to redefine P2W into "only buying max-level gear counts" is ridiculous revisionist nonsense invented by people who got so normalized and demoralized to cash shop monetization that they've completely lost the plot.

You don't have to think XP pots "ruin the game" to acknowledge they are objectively monetized progression advantage. That's what they are. Calling them "not P2W" because they're "just convenience" is basically admitting you don't understand how progression-based online games actually function.
Click to expand...
When progression is entirely self only, like THJ or what it looks like they might be doing on EQL, where everyone can instance all the things, then it is not p2w at all. If this was mnm where they plan to shove everyone in an uninstanced hellscape where everyone has to out dps everyone for loot and camps, you would be right. In properly instanced games there are no monopolies on anything, so the only thing that happens for someone using an xp pot is they level/aa faster.

If racing provided some sort of game power/ability that was otherwise unobtainable you would be right. But I haven't seen anything so far that indicates that will be the case. If Faceless is able to clear naggy/vox/fear/hate/sky 5 minutes after the server opens, who the fuck cares? Good for them. They will have full +10 on 20 accounts before I get my first one done. That has jack and shit to do with my game experience unless I want to baz something for convenience that they might be selling. I will get to those same fights solo in my own time, and I will probably have a lot of fun doing it. Each emu I have played has had various quirks, but I have enjoyed them.
 
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Burren

Burren

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Nerd tangent; anyone remember the melee dps rankings for classic and then Kunark?

For Classic was it
- rogue/monk
- war/ranger
- sk
- pal
- bard
 
moonarchia

moonarchia

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Mrniceguy said:
It's also been removing tedious long camps from old content forever. Pick a lane man.
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My lane is that for games with proper instancing it is fine to sell QOL and convenience because it only affects one person. THJ did the exact same thing, and that was one of the things that made it so fun. EQ sells the same thing, but I don't know how much/often they do proper instancing. I haven't played live in ages.

The beta is progressing, and EQL will be launching in a couple months. Will be interesting to see how it goes.
 
Kaines

Kaines

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Burren said:
Nerd tangent; anyone remember the melee dps rankings for classic and then Kunark?

For Classic was it
- rogue/monk
- war/ranger
- sk
- pal
- bard
Click to expand...
You are correct, but Bard haste stacked with everything else. So you always wanted one in your melee group.
 
Mrniceguy

Mrniceguy

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Burren said:
No, I did not. What aspect of the discussion am I missing?
Click to expand...

1) They had Donate for server wide XP pots, so the removed the p2w aspect of it while still allowing people to "TIP them"

2) How many AAs you'll likely need to eventually kill the boss.
 
Burren

Burren

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Mrniceguy said:
1) They had Donate for server wide XP pots, so the removed the p2w aspect of it while still allowing people to "TIP them"

2) How many AAs you'll likely need to eventually kill the boss.
Click to expand...
Interesting. I didn’t know that.
 
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