Final Fantasy 16

Chris · Jun 27, 2023

Rajaah said:
I don't Picard often, but FF16 is literally like your first real 1P FF game right?

So you have no real point of reference as to why people are beefing, and won't be able to understand it because from your perspective the game is standalone and quite good in that vacuum. It isn't an "us" problem, it's a legitimate complaint to gripe that this is more of a DMC/GoW game than an FF game, despite being called FF.

Similar to how a lot of us have an issue with FF7R being called "FF7 Remake" when it isn't a remake of FF7, it's a weird alternate timeline sequel. People who just got to the party and love FF7R have no idea WTF the rest of us are talking about though.

We're not just on different pages, we're reading different books. No need to defend this game you like. I like it too, but us wanting a Final Fantasy game to resemble 12 out of 13 of the previous mainline single-player Final Fantasy games isn't exactly some sort of crazy wish.

He is right though, the only legitimate point "old FF players" have is the combat being a different style.

The series is wildly inconsistent in what "RPG elements" it offers.

Which FF game rewarded exploration? The earlier games punished you with mazes to get you into random battles, otherwise you just got short detours with a chest at the end.

Which FF game had interesting loot and crafting? Almost all have slightly incremented +attack and +defence equipment in the next town.

Which FF game had more complex character building choices?

People usually say they like FF9, that's got very little of the above lol and includes food themed side quests like "Steiner eats Onions".

It's always a mix of things that ultimately are satisfying or not.

Zindan · Jun 27, 2023

Rajaah said:
I don't Picard often, but FF16 is literally like your first real 1P FF game right?

So you have no real point of reference as to why people are beefing, and won't be able to understand it because from your perspective the game is standalone and quite good in that vacuum. It isn't an "us" problem, it's a legitimate complaint to gripe that this is more of a DMC/GoW game than an FF game, despite being called FF.

Similar to how a lot of us have an issue with FF7R being called "FF7 Remake" when it isn't a remake of FF7, it's a weird alternate timeline sequel. People who just got to the party and love FF7R have no idea WTF the rest of us are talking about though.

We're not just on different pages, we're reading different books. No need to defend this game you like. I like it too, but us wanting a Final Fantasy game to resemble 12 out of 13 of the previous mainline single-player Final Fantasy games isn't exactly some sort of crazy wish.

I understand where you're coming from since I do it all the time with comparing MMO's to BDO, wishing they had this or that aspect of BDO which I like and which makes BDO the best MMO I've played. That is entirely a ME issue and not an issue with those other MMO's.

Not trying to defend FF16 vs. other FF's at all here. I just think, out of the issues voiced, that most are weak and are entirely based on memories of a past game? What exactly is it lacking in terms of rpg elements? That is the one issue that I have biggest disagreement with I suppose. Every other rpg I've played has the same shit to it.

Chris · Jun 27, 2023

Zindan said:
I understand where you're coming from since I do it all the time with comparing MMO's to BDO, wishing they had this or that aspect of BDO which I like and which makes BDO the best MMO I've played. That is entirely a ME issue and not an issue with those other MMO's.

Not trying to defend FF16 vs. other FF's at all here. I just think, out of the issues voiced, that most are weak and are entirely based on memories of a past game? What exactly is it lacking in terms of rpg elements? That is the one issue that I have biggest disagreement with I suppose. Every other rpg I've played has the same shit to it.

If you had to grind skill points before you got the abilities and you couldn't reset them, people wouldn't be complaining.

Instead they front load progress by giving you the skill cheap and only the upgrades are expensive.

Rajaah · Jun 27, 2023

Chris said:
If you had to grind skill points before you got the abilities and you couldn't reset them, people wouldn't be complaining.

Instead they front load progress by giving you the skill cheap and only the upgrades are expensive.

If it didn't play like freaking Devil May Cry, people wouldn't be complaining.

(And I love DMC)

Rude · Jun 27, 2023

Chris said:
He is right though, the only legitimate point "old FF players" have is the combat being a different style.

The series is wildly inconsistent in what "RPG elements" it offers.

Which FF game rewarded exploration? The earlier games punished you with mazes to get you into random battles, otherwise you just got short detours with a chest at the end.

Which FF game had interesting loot and crafting? Almost all have slightly incremented +attack and +defence equipment in the next town.

Which FF game had more complex character building choices?

People usually say they like FF9, that's got very little of the above lol and includes food thened side quests like "Steiner eats Onions".

It's always a mix of things that ultimately are satisfying or not.

Your counter edgelord LARP doesn't work in politics, no reason to bring it in here.

Until final fantasy 15, there was no hack and slash style action combat in the mainline games. Final fantasy 14's combat was fucking awful, you face roll with a single button IIRC. 7R combat was shit too. Until your kit expanded most of it was spent in preparation, otherwise you could easily abuse broken mechanics (Tifa until you can blow everyone up with Cloud). To 7's benefit, at least magic isn't 100% useless. Glad to see the action combat in this game is being praised, even if I have no interest in another action combat iteration of final fantasy.

Rolling back to final fantasy 8, one of the attacks against it was how they went to the deep end with FMVs and other shit from 7. KOTR meme being a minute long or so? Isn't the entire eden summon several minutes long? Fuck you even got FMVs for a casual introduction to characters. I don't think any final fantasy went that hard since, well, aside from this one. I'm sure if the technical limitations weren't in place when 8 was made it would have been the first movie with periodic play in the series.

So, what was your primary point again? Different systems for leveling or allocation of skills? Some games had jobs, some had "junction" type items to learn skills, one had an abusable in battle growth mechanic? Just about every game had a trajectory of purchasable or quest acquired gear? Are you really trying to say that there was drastic deviations in this between earlier titles?

The only thing you may be right on is exploration. The worlds are larger now. My assumption is people shift expectations since final fantasy is moving away from what made it final fantasy. Or they're remembering the large and dead world 15 had, and are griping about how both final hallway and the large and dead world implementation suck dick. To the credit of 12, there was a whole bunch of shit to explore in that game, so I suppose there is a precedence.

Edit: meant 15, not 14, for the offline games.

Rajaah · Jun 27, 2023

Rude said:
Your counter edgelord LARP doesn't work in politics, no reason to bring it in here.

Until final fantasy 15, there was no hack and slash style action combat in the mainline games. Final fantasy 14's combat was fucking awful, you face roll with a single button IIRC. 7R combat was shit too. Until your kit expanded most of it was spent in preparation, otherwise you could easily abuse broken mechanics (Tifa until you can blow everyone up with Cloud). To 7's benefit, at least magic isn't 100% useless. Glad to see the action combat in this game is being praised, even if I have no interest in another action combat iteration of final fantasy.

Rolling back to final fantasy 8, one of the attacks against it was how they went to the deep end with FMVs and other shit from 7. KOTR meme being a minute long or so? Isn't the entire eden summon several minutes long? Fuck you even got FMVs for a casual introduction to characters. I don't think any final fantasy went that hard since, well, aside from this one. I'm sure if the technical limitations weren't in place when 8 was made it would have been the first movie with periodic play in the series.

So, what was your primary point again? Different systems for leveling or allocation of skills? Some games had jobs, some had "junction" type items to learn skills, one had an abusable in battle growth mechanic? Just about every game had a trajectory of purchasable or quest acquired gear? Are you really trying to say that there was drastic deviations in this between earlier titles?

The only thing you may be right on is exploration. The worlds are larger now. My assumption is people shift expectations since final fantasy is moving away from what made it final fantasy. Or they're remembering the large and dead world 15 had, and are griping about how both final hallway and the large and dead world implementation suck dick. To the credit of 12, there was a whole bunch of shit to explore in that game, so I suppose there is a precedence.

Edit: meant 15, not 14, for the offline games.

Yes, 15 is indeed a game you can faceroll with a single button. And people complained that 13 "played itself" just because the classes basically self-ran. Switching between said classes IS the strategy for 13. I'd take 13 over 15 every day. Though personally the best battle systems, and the ones they should be emulating or bringing back, are FF10 and 12.

Hateyou · Jun 27, 2023

Rajaah said:
Yes, 15 is indeed a game you can faceroll with a single button. And people complained that 13 "played itself" just because the classes basically self-ran. Switching between said classes IS the strategy for 13. I'd take 13 over 15 every day. Though personally the best battle systems, and the ones they should be emulating or bringing back, are FF10 and 12.

As much as I hated the beginning of 13 for being a hallway and the characters and story were complete trash, the combat mid to late game was weird but pretty fun.

Chris · Jun 27, 2023

Rude said:
Your counter edgelord LARP doesn't work in politics, no reason to bring it in here.

Until final fantasy 15, there was no hack and slash style action combat in the mainline games. Final fantasy 14's combat was fucking awful, you face roll with a single button IIRC. 7R combat was shit too. Until your kit expanded most of it was spent in preparation, otherwise you could easily abuse broken mechanics (Tifa until you can blow everyone up with Cloud). To 7's benefit, at least magic isn't 100% useless. Glad to see the action combat in this game is being praised, even if I have no interest in another action combat iteration of final fantasy.

Rolling back to final fantasy 8, one of the attacks against it was how they went to the deep end with FMVs and other shit from 7. KOTR meme being a minute long or so? Isn't the entire eden summon several minutes long? Fuck you even got FMVs for a casual introduction to characters. I don't think any final fantasy went that hard since, well, aside from this one. I'm sure if the technical limitations weren't in place when 8 was made it would have been the first movie with periodic play in the series.

So, what was your primary point again? Different systems for leveling or allocation of skills? Some games had jobs, some had "junction" type items to learn skills, one had an abusable in battle growth mechanic? Just about every game had a trajectory of purchasable or quest acquired gear? Are you really trying to say that there was drastic deviations in this between earlier titles?

The only thing you may be right on is exploration. The worlds are larger now. My assumption is people shift expectations since final fantasy is moving away from what made it final fantasy. Or they're remembering the large and dead world 15 had, and are griping about how both final hallway and the large and dead world implementation suck dick. To the credit of 12, there was a whole bunch of shit to explore in that game, so I suppose there is a precedence.

Edit: meant 15, not 14, for the offline games.

Very incoherent post.

Why not stick to what I asked? Which games have meaningful RPG elements that are missing here?

Are those actually different to 16 and consistent across the series? Again not talking about combat.

Merrith · Jun 27, 2023

bolok said:
A ff for me is pretty simple.
Yeah there was bitching about the plots and the settings and niggles of atb vs turn based. But they still all felt like a ff to me. Even the pseudo ai programming in 12 was atb ish. And you could just turn it off regardless. They were just better or worse games. I’m a simple dude, I just want a party you fully control and to be able to play it with a drink in one hand. You know, like a rpg.

Now they still feel like FF to everyone, with time comes a lot more acceptance. Not saying specifically to you, but to many people. At the time, people were up in arms about these things as well. The internet is just even more the internet as time goes on.

Merrith · Jun 27, 2023

Rajaah said:
Similar to how a lot of us have an issue with FF7R being called "FF7 Remake" when it isn't a remake of FF7, it's a weird alternate timeline sequel. People who just got to the party and love FF7R have no idea WTF the rest of us are talking about though.

That all depends how you view the word Remake. The way the "angry" fans describe it, it's just the highest form of Remaster. Plenty of us who love the OG liked the idea of actually Remaking the 7 story...plus they've told us/hinted to us they were going to do that all along.

Rude · Jun 27, 2023

Merrith said:
That all depends how you view the word Remake. The way the "angry" fans describe it, it's just the highest form of Remaster. Plenty of us who love the OG liked the idea of actually Remaking the 7 story...plus they've told us/hinted to us they were going to do that all along.

When you're a full blown retard and categorize people who deride the final fantasy 7 "Remake" for being a shitty amalgamation of kingdom hearts and fan fiction as "angry" fans.

At least

Chris sticks to his guns as a counter edgelord LARP. Speaking of, since Chris is carbon copying

Mist 's current political debating trajectory, I think the easiest retort is to tell you to suck a dick.

TJT · Jun 27, 2023

Caeden said:
I’m only a bit past the prologue but my wife keeps stopping to watch. Then says you absolutely can’t play this in front of the kids. No shit. End of the prologue was a wtf moment. Been a long time since I’ve played something this cinematic and that keeps me interested. Wish this level of concise and polish was used by the team for 14’s dialogue.

What makes it bad for kids?

Utnayan · Jun 27, 2023

Chris said:
Which FF game rewarded exploration? Final Fantasy XII.

Which FF game had interesting loot and crafting? Can we count FF14?

Which FF game had more complex character building choices? I would say Final Fantasy XII.

It's always a mix of things that ultimately are satisfying or not.

Answers in quotation but really doesn't matter. Like each final fantasy game as an anthology, it goes into differing systems as which one(s) seem to get the most attention. FF16 here is getting the most attention as a heck of a story with a lot of wow moments and movie popcorn style effects. Personally I am fine with that myself - It's a fun ride so far.

Merrith · Jun 27, 2023

Rude said:
When you're a full blown retard and categorize people who deride the final fantasy 7 "Remake" for being a shitty amalgamation of kingdom hearts and fan fiction as "angry" fans.

At least Chris sticks to his guns as a counter edgelord LARP. Speaking of, since Chris is carbon copying Mist 's current political debating trajectory, I think the easiest retort is to tell you to suck a dick.

And you can always tell the "angry" fans because they forever bring up Kingdom Hearts in their responses. Nomura isn't even the head guy on 7R anymore. You go "full blown" with that shit any time it's brought up. I guess in your favor at least you're consistent.

Merrith · Jun 27, 2023

Utnayan said:
Answers in quotation but really doesn't matter. Like each final fantasy game as an anthology, it goes into differing systems as which one(s) seem to get the most attention. FF16 here is getting the most attention as a heck of a story with a lot of wow moments and movie popcorn style effects. Personally I am fine with that myself - It's a fun ride so far.

Story probably getting extra attention because even people who liked 15's agreed it really had issues and was unfinished in certain areas later on in the game, 13's was pretty much shit on by everyone, and frankly even 12's turned to dog shit later on in the game. Also just the fact that 14's (especially the last 2 expansions) is widely praised with a lot of the same people behind it. The amount of content out there regarding combat mechanics and Eikon choices throughout the game is pretty crazy, as well.

Rude · Jun 27, 2023

Merrith said:
And you can always tell the "angry" fans because they forever bring up Kingdom Hearts in their responses. Nomura isn't even the head guy on 7R anymore. You go "full blown" with that shit any time it's brought up. I guess in your favor at least you're consistent.

Ah right, he was promoted so that means the work he did previously, which is the subject of the conversation, is actually decoupled from him. Extending on that, the combat sucking dick and the shitty fan fiction integration is also a nonstarter for negatives. Stick to eating paint chips, you retard.

Caeden · Jun 27, 2023

TJT said:
What makes it bad for kids?

I guess all the fucks and murder. I mean my kids are 2 and 4. So I almost see her point.

So much for my classic 80’s horror marathon with the kids this weekend.

Hateyou · Jun 27, 2023

TJT said:
What makes it bad for kids?

It cusses constantly. One scene very early someone just repeats Fuck over and over like twelve times in a row lol. There’s also brutal murders. Close ups of throats getting slit with blood spraying everywhere, axes to the face, a dad gets murdered in front of his son and his face is covered in dads blood. There’s also sexual scenes.

Another bunch of big departures from previous Final Fantasy games.

Rajaah · Jun 27, 2023

Rude said:
Speaking of, since Chris is carbon copying Mist 's current political debating trajectory

It'll get me picarded or whatever but I respect

Chris and

Mist

A lot of people, hell, most people would just leave if they're outnumbered ideologically or have the unpopular opinions in a particular space. People sticking around and being willing to stand by their assertions is very respectable even if I completely disagree with what's being asserted. Basically I respect anyone who is open to debate, since we live in an era where it's MUCH more common for people to just block each other, call for their opponent to be censored, or just flat-out disappear rather than defend their beliefs against any kind of scrutiny.

Malakriss · Jun 27, 2023

Except for the people who don't post pictures in the FSR. Cid blocks those immediately and don't give a fuck.

Final Fantasy 16

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