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This Civil War derail is brought to you by wikipedia and the number 3.
Seriously though, im glad this forum is filled with so many historians, mathematicians, mechanical/electrical engineers, architects, oceanographers, paleontologist, botanists, and whoever else, that can enlighten us with so much useful knowledge at any given time.
Seriously though, im glad this forum is filled with so many historians, mathematicians, mechanical/electrical engineers, architects, oceanographers, paleontologist, botanists, and whoever else, that can enlighten us with so much useful knowledge at any given time.
In the book wasn't there some point where it mentioned how they'd literally take anyone into the service? Like wheelchair bound, blind in two eyes dudes and just find some role for them even it it was medical testing (think that was the example the book used)? So it wasn't like everyone was Mobile Infantry right. Just making sure I'm remembering it right.
Fuck that book was badass, "Something given has no value" is a line I think I'll always remember. The USMC has a bit of a hard on for the movie as well. "Just trying to kill some bugs Sir" was often used as an explanation for something dumb.
Tummysticks
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Relevant:
I asked one of the doctors what percentage of the victims flunked the physical. He looked startled. "Why, we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to."
"Huh? I mean, Excuse me, Doctor? Then what's the point of this goose-flesh parade?"
"Why, the purpose is," he answered, hauling off and hitting me in the knee with a hammer (I kicked him, but not hard), "to find out what duties you are physically able to perform. But if you came in here in a wheel chair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath."
"Oh. Uh . . . Doctor, were you already a doctor when you joined up? Or did they decide you ought to be a doctor and send you to school?"
"Me?" He seemed shocked. "Youngster, do I look that silly? I'm a civilian employee."
"Oh. Sorry, sir."
"No offense. But military service is for ants. Believe me. I see 'em go, I see 'em come back - when they do come back. I see what it's done to them. And for what? A purely nominal political privilege that pays not one centavo and that most of them aren't competent to use wisely anyhow. Now if they would let medical men run things - but never mind that; you might think I was talking treason, free speech or not. But, youngster, if you've got savvy enough to count ten, you'll back out while you still can. Here, take these papers back to the recruiting sergeant - and remember what I said."
"Huh? I mean, Excuse me, Doctor? Then what's the point of this goose-flesh parade?"
"Why, the purpose is," he answered, hauling off and hitting me in the knee with a hammer (I kicked him, but not hard), "to find out what duties you are physically able to perform. But if you came in here in a wheel chair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath."
"Oh. Uh . . . Doctor, were you already a doctor when you joined up? Or did they decide you ought to be a doctor and send you to school?"
"Me?" He seemed shocked. "Youngster, do I look that silly? I'm a civilian employee."
"Oh. Sorry, sir."
"No offense. But military service is for ants. Believe me. I see 'em go, I see 'em come back - when they do come back. I see what it's done to them. And for what? A purely nominal political privilege that pays not one centavo and that most of them aren't competent to use wisely anyhow. Now if they would let medical men run things - but never mind that; you might think I was talking treason, free speech or not. But, youngster, if you've got savvy enough to count ten, you'll back out while you still can. Here, take these papers back to the recruiting sergeant - and remember what I said."
The purpose is really to make you miserable, to rub in that you gave your life for your society. He gets a pretty in depth explanation of the rationale when he is in officer training. Agree with it or not I'd love to actually see a society run on the principals outlined in the book and see what the results are.
boozebagbeefhole
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Mist
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Let's outline some things here:
1) Starship Troopers was written as an extremely clever thought experiment, so much so that people with lots of letters after their names still debate over it to this day. Heinlein takes every opportunity to satirize each and every one of the points made in his own story. Multiple times it makes references to how pointless the ability to vote that one receives actually is, as your choices are one militaristic veteran or another.
2) We're not fighting a giant army of bugs. Our only remaining enemies are a figurative handful of people who live in caves, and we're literally going broke as a nation fighting them.
3) Any mandatory, domestic, civilian corps would cost a LOT of money. We already have the AmeriCorps, something conservatives love to defund despite sounding both patriotic and militaristic. And it also runs contrary to the founding capitalist principals of conservatism; that this kind of work (mostly infrastructure) are to be left to the free market, where profit motives create efficiency.
4) Therefore, this kind of program would actually be an example of EXTREME leftism in practice, ironic given that most of the proponents in this thread are identified conservatives.
5) Both the WW2 draft and the Veitnam drafts were liberal policies. The conservative answer to conscription has been to keep the poor as poor as possible, so that they will have to sign up for the military out of necessity, and then deny them any benefits of service as much as possible afterwards, ignoring the problems of rampant veteran unemployment and rarely sending their own kids to war.
1) Starship Troopers was written as an extremely clever thought experiment, so much so that people with lots of letters after their names still debate over it to this day. Heinlein takes every opportunity to satirize each and every one of the points made in his own story. Multiple times it makes references to how pointless the ability to vote that one receives actually is, as your choices are one militaristic veteran or another.
2) We're not fighting a giant army of bugs. Our only remaining enemies are a figurative handful of people who live in caves, and we're literally going broke as a nation fighting them.
3) Any mandatory, domestic, civilian corps would cost a LOT of money. We already have the AmeriCorps, something conservatives love to defund despite sounding both patriotic and militaristic. And it also runs contrary to the founding capitalist principals of conservatism; that this kind of work (mostly infrastructure) are to be left to the free market, where profit motives create efficiency.
4) Therefore, this kind of program would actually be an example of EXTREME leftism in practice, ironic given that most of the proponents in this thread are identified conservatives.
5) Both the WW2 draft and the Veitnam drafts were liberal policies. The conservative answer to conscription has been to keep the poor as poor as possible, so that they will have to sign up for the military out of necessity, and then deny them any benefits of service as much as possible afterwards, ignoring the problems of rampant veteran unemployment and rarely sending their own kids to war.
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Xevy
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1. ST was written as a novel to make money. Anything interesting about it is a reflection of Heinlein's philosophy that if he was interested in something, somebody else probably would be to and therefore would buy his book. Characters do not reflect the author's views on anything, they reflect the characters views. It wouldn't have been at all realistic to have book where everyone thought it was the best idea ever and signed up and as such the book probably would not have done as well. As for Heinlein himself, his only comment when asked about it was that he thought the society would probably do very well in the right circumstances, but that without experimental confirmation of at least a few generations it was just an opinion.
2. I fail to see how this matters to the premise of Starship Troopers. Our currently military is nothing like the the one in the book, in terms of technology, structure, doctrine, etc., nor is the background society very similar.
3. Again, fail to see how this matters. Starship Troopers is 100% volunteer and will take anyone, as long as they can understand the oath. No military anywhere ever has been designed like that.
4. No... volunteer force. You can't possibly argue that the "left" implemented the draft and then argue that a 100% volunteer force would be an "extreme left" idea. No. In fact the book is roundly criticized in a number of circles for being unrealistically libertarian, which is about as far "right" as it gets.
5. Again, not relevant. Starship Troopers is a 100% volunteer force. No drafts. No possibility of a draft ever happening.
