Genshin Impact

Ao- · Oct 31, 2020

AladainAF said:
If they implemented their gacha like PSO2 they would probably get even more spenders, tbh.

Knowing 5* is like 0.5% makes me not want to sink money into pulls... 3% rate and I'd be looking a lot more closely...

Edit: it's a bit frustrating the only way to get constellations is via summons, so once the character advancement focuses around that, I forsee a large die-off.

AladainAF · Oct 31, 2020

Ao- said:
Knowing 5* is like 0.5% makes me not want to sink money into pulls... 3% rate and I'd be looking a lot more closely...

Edit: it's a bit frustrating the only way to get constellations is via summons, so once the character advancement focuses around that, I forsee a large die-off.

Exactly. PSO2 gives you rewards based on the number of pulls you do on a banner (using GI's terminology). Then, after a fairly high number (but one that varies per banner), you get to pick anything the banner could award.

Warr · Oct 31, 2020

Intrinsic said:
I honestly have no idea what the complaints are about these “predatory practices.” I’ve played maybe 20 different Gacha/Hero Collectors whatever pseudo genres you want and there’s no more or less different stuff here. Heck there’s about 1,000% more content since most of those just involve auto fighting on three different screens and doing 3-5 Normal/Hard/Hell mode with content obviously gated behind paywalls and a requirement of a 5* team, then add in PvP for rewards that only whales can get. Is it because it is hidden behind a mediocre marketed single player RPG? Or because it is basically Early Access still and 90% of the story doesn’t exist, but is free, and doesn’t require any investment?

Yes, the fact that the gacha genre has moved out from mobile platforms into the PC / console space beyond the existing loot boxes and piece lmicrotransactions out there now.

If you want to be buy into the slippery slope argument, Genshin's success will lead to more mainstream gamers buying into these games and more companies making them.

Better worded argument here:

If you don't agree with Upper Echelon's points, I understand. He's pretty opinionated. But you would naive to think that companies like EA and Ubisoft aren't watching how Mihoyo pulled in $50 million in just a week and wondering how they can get into that market.

Mr Creed · Oct 31, 2020

Warr said:
companies like EA and Ubisoft

I'll admit to not knowing a lick about the sports games genre, but don't they put out an entirely new game yearly where you can buy random packs for extra players, and also have limited/seasonal editions?

Zindan · Oct 31, 2020

AladainAF said:
Exactly. PSO2 gives you rewards based on the number of pulls you do on a banner (using GI's terminology). Then, after a fairly high number (but one that varies per banner), you get to pick anything the banner could award.

Like if you spent enough to get everything on the banner, but you didn't get what you wanted, you then get to pick something?

Intrinsic · Oct 31, 2020

Warr said:
Yes, the fact that the gacha genre has moved out from mobile platforms into the PC / console space beyond the existing loot boxes and piece lmicrotransactions out there now.

If you want to be buy into the slippery slope argument, Genshin's success will lead to more mainstream gamers buying into these games and more companies making them.

Better worded argument here:

If you don't agree with Upper Echelon's points, I understand. He's pretty opinionated. But you would naive to think that companies like EA and Ubisoft aren't watching how Mihoyo pulled in $50 million in just a week and wondering how they can get into that market.

The only thing to disagree with on his points is usage of "force" and "must" to describe the STA system and things he doesn't like. We've covered those same topics with an emphasis on how it is just bad design decision and waste of potential because the ratios of regen vs rewards, etc. All the content in the game is achievable without spending a single cent on Resin refresh or pulls for characters. There is no "forced" monetization here and you can partake of the gacha system with free in game rewards. There is no "must" to spend gems or fragile resin for refresh. Using exaggerated language like that is not conducive to the overall argument. It is greatly misleading. There's also (currently) no PvP here so pay-to-win is irrelevant to me from a single player perspective (as long as single player content is not gated behind the payment system, which it is not in any way here).

The whole thing just comes off as being whiny because people can't control themselves. That isn't a game development or genre problem it is a human being problem.

I agree completely with him that it increases the likelihood of seeing the system trickle in to other games or developers. At the end of the day they're all there to fleece as much money as they can from us. I also accept that my decade plus of playing these things on mobile platforms has colored my perspective. It is all so common to me that there is no compulsion to spend money to keep pulling the lever. If I ever spend money on this genre is based off a time vs. quality investment (which may not be any better), but if I played it for a month throwing out $5 for the 30-day daily reward works for me. I blame EQ for normalizing a subscription based game model to me.

Pity systems also seem relatively new which is sort of a better way to handle the randomness. At least these days they give you actual percentages for chance to drop. All that stuff was hidden to the end user at the start as well. You can at least start to make better informed decisions about how you set your money on fire and miss your next Wendy's meal.

Warr · Oct 31, 2020

Yeah I agree there are flaws in the argument. It's also a vey long term game with only 2/7 areas filled out so the expectation should not be to "beat" the game with all max level characters within 2 weeks of release.

I have played mobile games in the past but I've never had too much of an issue seeing them for what they were and saying no to spending on them. This being on a console/PC did a very good job of sinking its hooks into me and trying to break down that mental barrier to spending. I could have justified it in several ways and I did not like what it was doing.

Obsidian · Oct 31, 2020

I think I went the exact opposite as some of you guys here. I played this game at release and really enjoyed it. I also play a couple gacha games on my phone (AFK Arena and Epic 7). I have spent a little on both of those games (maybe $10 each) but the pull rates in genshin are so abysmally low I wouldn't even consider trying. Noped out pretty quick even though this is a dramatically better game than either AFK Arena or Epic 7.

Daidraco · Oct 31, 2020

I have yet to really figure out why anyone would spend money on this game, though. I see the appeal, but outside of the free pulls and the base characters - I havent exactly ran into any content that I havent been able to do? I have spent no where near as much time as some of you have though. How you guys are AR 35 etc is crazy to me.

mkopec · Oct 31, 2020

One thing hes right on is when companies see the $100+ million in sales within the first few weeks, you can bet your ass they will be doing everything possible to get this type of monetization into their games soon. Which is not a good thing. I dont know why any of you are even protecting this type of monetization inside games.

Its fucking predatory simple as that. While you can just shrug this shit off and do F2P but others get addicted to this shit. Its endorphin rushes to the head every time you hit that wish button.

AladainAF · Oct 31, 2020

Zindan said:
Like if you spent enough to get everything on the banner, but you didn't get what you wanted, you then get to pick something?

Sorta. This is what one of the tickets looks like in PSO2:

So basically, if you do 120 pulls (Which is about $125 or so worth) you will get some misc stuff throughout. Each one of those "Royal F Ticket" items lets you just manually pick from the entire prize table any 1 item you want. Bear in mind though, most of their banners have about 100 or so items you can get.

This is very generous, for a gacha style game, but there's no reason they can't implement this here, with approporate numbers of wishes required, rather than making the whole thing a massive crap shoot.

Zindan · Oct 31, 2020

AladainAF said:
Sorta. This is what one of the tickets looks like in PSO2:

View attachment 313874

So basically, if you do 120 pulls (Which is about $125 or so worth) you will get some misc stuff throughout. Each one of those "Royal F Ticket" items lets you just manually pick from the entire prize table any 1 item you want. Bear in mind though, most of their banners have about 100 or so items you can get.

This is very generous, for a gacha style game, but there's no reason they can't implement this here, with approporate numbers of wishes required, rather than making the whole thing a massive crap shoot.

Well, they have the pity system where you are guaranteed a 5* at 90 and 180 rolls, which carries over into new banners. So its not totally random regardless of your rolls. Still bad.

mkopec · Oct 31, 2020

Intrinsic said:
The whole thing just comes off as being whiny because people can't control themselves. That isn't a game development or genre problem it is a human being problem.

HUH? Whiny? Not a game problem that has a fucking slot machine inside it and pretty much everything around the game leads you to pull the arm? Come on man, youre being disingenuous here, bro. This shit should not be in video games. This is not even a game at its core. Its a graphical interface to help extract as much money from you as possible. The more you play this game the more youre forced into buying shit. Or you cannot play.

Go back and check the Star Wars Battlefront II thread and how people were fucking furious about having loot boxes in that games BETA! With not even a way to purchase them with RL cash yet, and the masses revolted in such a way that even congress was getting involved. And even when EA removed the boxes and publicly apologized (again in BETA) the gaming community still turned up their noses. And that shit was no where near the level of shittery as this fucking Chinese (our fucking enemy) predatory game is.

mkopec · Oct 31, 2020

Zindan said:
Well, they have the pity system where you are guaranteed a 5* at 90 and 180 rolls, which carries over into new banners. So its not totally random regardless of your rolls. Still bad.

Its still RNG and still random so youre not guaranteed anything other than a 5* among the what? 10 5* they have in game? so while the banner has a higher chance of a certain 5*, youre still not guaranteed shit. For instance I got a Keching in the Venti banner.

Plus I think the $100 first time purchase gets you 80 pulls. So not even there yet with $100. I think the entire game has about 120 ish free pulls if you do chests, the events, dailies, all that bullshit.

Uriel · Oct 31, 2020

Just to clarify, you have a 50% chance to get the banner character when you pull a 5*, and if you pull an off-banner 5* then the next time you pull one its guaranteed to be the banner unit. So at the worst you're guaranteed the banner unit every other 5*.

The weapon banner is a little different, you have a 33% chance each to pull banner weapon #1, #2, or from the off-banner pool. It also has the on-banner gaurantee for every other 5*.

All that said, I think they need to re-evaluate their monetization approach if they want to have continued success long term. I'd like to see them drop the roll cost to 100 from 160 for starters. They should also add a couple more monthly packs for 5-10$ each, definitely one for daily resin and then maybe some for char/wep xp, mora, etc. Small monthly costs like this with very high value per/$ spent are important to keep small spenders playing the game, and its also something a F2P player would consider.

Also thinking longer term, they should really focus on coop content and something like randomized dungeons, things that will keep people engaged and give us something to do. Exploration is great and I enjoy it a lot, but it takes a lot of time to put out quality regions like they've done with Mondstadt and Liyue.

AladainAF · Oct 31, 2020

Zindan said:
Well, they have the pity system where you are guaranteed a 5* at 90 and 180 rolls, which carries over into new banners. So its not totally random regardless of your rolls. Still bad.

Nah, it's still predatory. The weapons banner is a great example. People that want either the sword or the atlas, the pity is there but the pity can very well give you the one you dont want.

There's some guy on youtube that wanted to get the book and spent like 20,000 primos on that weapon banner for it and got 5 wolf gravestones and 0 books.

AladainAF · Oct 31, 2020

Uriel said:
Just to clarify, you have a 50% chance to get the banner character when you pull a 5*, and if you pull an off-banner 5* then the next time you pull one its guaranteed to be the banner unit. So at the worst you're guaranteed the banner unit every other 5*.

This is correct only for the first 180 pulls. It's not every 180.

Uriel · Oct 31, 2020

In my experience its true that every other 5* will be a banner unit/weapon, but the sample size there is small (C6 Klee, R5 Sacred Prayer and R2 Wolfs Gravestone). I haven't watched any streamers/youtubers pulling though, so I have no clue if they're getting off banner 5*s in a row.

Gator · Oct 31, 2020

AladainAF said:
Nah, it's still predatory. The weapons banner is a great example. People that want either the sword or the atlas, the pity is there but the pity can very well give you the one you dont want.

There's some guy on youtube that wanted to get the book and spent like 20,000 primos on that weapon banner for it and got 5 wolf gravestones and 0 books.

The next day this video followed

Zindan · Oct 31, 2020

AladainAF said:
This is correct only for the first 180 pulls. It's not every 180.

I've not seen, or heard of that being the case. It will always be "if you don't get the banner character the first time, you get it the second"... reset... repeat.

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Genshin Impact

Ao-

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AladainAF

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Warr

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit

Zindan

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Intrinsic

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Daidraco

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mkopec

AladainAF

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Uriel

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