Gunman opens fire at Oregon mall outside of Portland

BrutulTM

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
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Hachiman_sl said:
Maybe, but a gun is an instrument of violence, it's not designed to do anything else.
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I hate this argument. There are tens of millions of gun owners in the US and the vast majority of them don't do violence with them. I own a bunch of guns and never used any of them for violence (against humans at least) and never intend to. Why did I spend my hard earned money on these things if they are ONLY designed for doing violence?
 
Tmac

Tmac

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BurnemWizfyre_sl said:
Gun control is good, removal of guns is bad. Body armor should be made illegal for citizens to own. All assault rifles should be banned as well, keep your glocks and semi-automatics with their clips and all. Citizens have no business owning military grade assault rifles, sorry hunters but you do not need a fucking assault rifles to shoot ducks with. All of this is reasonable to discuss and I do not feel as though I am in the right in knowing what is best this is my opinion, that being said finger print resistant coatings on guns is 100% bullshit along with selling of body armor. Sorry but if you want to take advantage of the fact that you can get a gun and shoot up a place then you don't get the luxury of body armor to let you live longer and be able to kill more people.
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Second amendment says otherwise. So doesBenjamin Franklinwho says, "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

There's also theGun Control Wikithat has this little gem:
Gun Control Wiki_sl said:
In particular, we can say that gun culture has always been a piece of Southern life. And this still remains. The main roots of gun culture in the South may have been: 1) The need to control a large number of enslaved people; 2) The persistence of a frontier life-style, due to the proximity to different Native American tribes; 3) The sparsely populated towns and villages, that made necessary for isolated farmers and planters to use weapons in order to defend themselves.
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Guncontrolhelped in keeping those without guns enslaved, while having guns helped in the defense of farms and towns. You can argue that we live in a different time, which is true, but people are still the same. You add a bunch of people in that mall who are carrying firearms and you've got a great defense against the looneytoon that went looking to take advantage ofunarmedcitizens.

To think tightening control over gun ownership reduces violence ignores history, human nature, and statistics. I don't hold the knee jerk response against you, because it is a serious tragedy, but to assume tighter regulation will do anything but create more criminals is ignorant at best.
 
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Faiona_sl

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Merkins4Brazil_sl said:
Curious to see a demo break down of number of illegally v. legally acquired guns used in homicides, as well as the racial statistics of the killer / victims . I think I know the answer, but would like to be proven wrong. (in U.S. ofc)
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I've been trying to find out this from an actual legitimate resource. This is what I've found so far when it comes to acquiring a gun:

According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

Here's the source:http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm

Also looking up stats and comparing them to other countries...we actually have a relatively lower rate of things like burglaries/assaults/rapes compared to other countries. Example:http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...d-States/Crime

As for our gun murder rates and stuff...aren't vast majority of them related to inner city drug stuff? I'm sure on the FBI site and that other government site someone can find something related to that. This is from an article, although I can't find the source where they get this from...so they could totally be talking outta their ass.

"The African-American community?s massive homicide rate accounts for most of America?s murders
This rate is around 26 per 100,000, but reached as high as 50.4 in 1991 ? figures similar to or higher than Russia's enormous homicide rate (19.9 in 1997). The ?white? community in America, which also includes most Hispanics, has a much lower homicide rate at around three per 100,000. This number is not particularly out of line for Anglosphere countries, although certainly at the higher end.

Two factors seem to explain this high black murder rate in America. First is the violence of the drug trade, which is rife in many African-American communities. As crime expert Eli Lehrer notes: ?The most likely person to murder you is your fellow drug dealer?. One analysis of a drug-selling gang discovered each of its members had a 7% chance of being murdered every year."
 
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Hachiman_sl

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Again, I'm not against anyone who isn't a criminal or insane owning a gun. But guns aren't designed for target practice or impressing your friends, or because you couldn't find anything better to spend your money on.

They are weapons, they are made to expediently kill things. They are either killing things, or are sitting there with the potential to kill something.
 
Fifey

Fifey

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Tmac47_sl said:
You add a bunch of people in that mall who are carrying firearms and you've got a great defense against the looneytoon that went looking to take advantage ofunarmedcitizens..
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Boom, there it is.

Armed/Unarmed means jack shit, look at the Giffords shooting in AZ.
 
Tmac

Tmac

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fifey_sl said:
Boom, there it is.

Armed/Unarmed means jack shit, look at the Giffords shooting in AZ.
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Reading comprehension fail on, "you've got a great defense," to mean that now nothing bad will ever happen.
 
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Renault

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Going after so called assault weapons really is a red herring when it comes to avoiding mass shootings. If you look at the mass shootings with the most fatalities you can see that a whole variety of weapons have been used and some of the deadliest such as the UT Austin clock-tower shooting were done with a regular hunting rifle. I'd hazard a guess that semi auto pistols have a much higher body count than any assault rifle but they aren't as exciting for the media to talk about afterwards. Realistically most shootings are more dependent on the technical proficiency and planning, if any, of the shooter rather then the weapons they end up using.

Also don't forget more then half the gun violence numbers in the US are actually from suicides using a firearm.
 
Tmac

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Hachiman_sl said:
or are sitting there with the potential to kill something.
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Are we talking about baseball bats, cars, trucks, vans, motorcycles, four-wheelers, dirt bikes, chain saws, tire irons, forks, knives, shanks, metal poles, or guns?
 
Xeldar

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and unicorn horns, titty sprinkles and rainbow farts (don't tell me those carebear's heart magick wasn't fucking deadlier than cyanide).
 
Big Phoenix

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Zodiac_sl said:
Just to be clear - the AR-15 is not a fully-automatic weapon. I can't think of any shootings committed with fully auto weapons since the North Hollywood shootout in like 1996.
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Going off memory here but Im pretty sure the only crime committed with legally owned fully automatic firearm was done by a cop. Here it is;

In 1995 there were over 240,000 machine guns registered with the ATF. (Zawitz, Marianne,Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns Used in Crime [PDF].) About half are owned by civilians and the other half by police departments and other governmental agencies (Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.)

Since 1934, there appear to have been at least two homicides committed with legally owned automatic weapons. One was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a civilian). On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. The 1986 'ban' on sales of new machine guns does not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies.
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http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcfullau.html
Wow, so much wrong with this I don't even want to start.
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Dont you love that logic? Forks make people fat, pencils make people stupid, cars cause people to get speeding tickets...
 
Kuro

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Tmac47_sl said:
Second amendment says otherwise. So doesBenjamin Franklinwho says, "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
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But sacrificing freedom for security is the entire basis of any social contract, including government.

Only feral animal children living in the wild deserve freedom or security.
 
tad10

tad10

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Kuro_sl said:
But sacrificing freedom for security is the entire basis of any social contract, including government.

Only feral animal children living in the wild deserve freedom or security.
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So slavery's cool as long as massah keeps you safe?
 
Tmac

Tmac

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Kuro_sl said:
But sacrificing freedom for security is the entire basis of any social contract, including government.
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I think the point is that they're mutually exclusive, so it's something to seriously consider when seeking security.
 
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Hachiman_sl

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Tmac47_sl said:
Are we talking about baseball bats, cars, trucks, vans, motorcycles, four-wheelers, dirt bikes, chain saws, tire irons, forks, knives, shanks, metal poles, or guns?
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Seung Cho, Jared Lee Loughner, Harris and Klebold, James Holmes: All insane, all killed with firearms, not with any of your above mentioned thingsthatcouldkillpeoplebutarenotguns.

Guns are designed to kill things, plain and simple. You can call it home defense, "sportsmanship", marksmanship, whatever you want. Again, I'm against banning shotguns, handguns, hunting rifles, etc. But let's not kid ourselves, if you own a firearm, you own it because you plan on hunting and killing an animal with it, or you feel that there may come a time where you would have to shoot someone with it (self defense, whatever).

Cho, Lougnher and Holmes all had documented mental health issues, yet easily purchased firearms, not Louisville Sluggers or Steak Knives. I'm saying something should be done about that, and I believe there are a few fairly simple things that could be done that could at least have a decent chance at preventing those incidents.

Again, I don't think the average American should be prohibited from owning a firearm. I DO happen to think that the odds of anyone ever having to kill someone in self defense is highly unlikely. I also believe that the average joe who happened to be armed in public when someone started shooting would do what everyone else does - piss their pants and run. A weekend NRA class and shooting soda cans won't turn you into John Wayne.
 
Tmac

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Sebudai_sl said:
Yeah if you sacrifice any of your freedoms, you're a slave.
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I think the point Tad was cleverly making, was that freedoms are always sacrificed in the pursuit of security. One simple example is traffic laws. We sacrifice our freedom to drive where we want to, when we want to, and how we want to for safer roads. There are still over 7,000 driving-related deaths every month, but we could probably all agree that the roads are in fact made safer by most traffic laws.
 
Big Phoenix

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Hachiman_sl said:
Cho, Lougnher and Holmes all had documented mental health issues, yet easily purchased firearms, not Louisville Sluggers or Steak Knives. I'm saying something should be done about that, and I believe there are a few fairly simple things that could be done that could at least have a decent chance at preventing those incidents.
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Wouldnt that be a failure of our health or government institutions to let such people freely walk around in society?

Again, I don't think the average American should be prohibited from owning a firearm. I DO happen to think that the odds of anyone ever having to kill someone in self defense is highly unlikely. I also believe that the average joe who happened to be armed in public when someone started shooting would do what everyone else does - piss their pants and run. A weekend NRA class and shooting soda cans won't turn you into John Wayne.
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There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.
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Sebudai

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Tmac47_sl said:
I think the point Tad was cleverly making, was that freedoms are always sacrificed in the pursuit of security. One simple example is traffic laws. We sacrifice our freedom to drive where we want to, when we want to, and how we want to for safer roads. There are still over 7,000 driving-related deaths every month, but we could probably all agree that the roads are in fact made safer by most traffic laws.
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These laws give me the ability to drive on the roads without significant risk of death. They make memorefree. This is what is wrong with this kind of twisted logic. You people think that security is the antithesis of freedom because some fatass gave us a memorable quote. The reality of the situation is the exact opposite.

Stop. Worshiping. These people.
 
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