Gunman opens fire at Oregon mall outside of Portland

Tmac

Tmac

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Sebudai_sl said:
These laws give me the ability to drive on the roads without significant risk of death. They make memorefree. This is what is wrong with this kind of twisted logic. You people think that security is the antithesis of freedom because some fatass gave us a memorable quote. The reality of the situation is the exact opposite.

Stop. Worshiping. These people.
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It's not hero worship, it's a sense of values. The idea that your money is yours, your possessions are yours, and you're free to pursue the things in life that make you happy without the government limiting that.

The first time I ever drove, I was 15 years old. I went to help my grandfather bale hay for the summer and one day he needed me to drive the truck, with a rake attached to the back of it, because we were changing fields. The truck was a stick shift, so I had to figure out how to not only shift gears, but get the truck to the other field in the same time it took him to get the tractor there. It was one of the scariest, but also greatest experiences I had that summer. I also broke the law, a law that would've prevented me from having that experience had I obeyed it. "Sorry gramps, you're going to have to walk back and drive this for me, because I'm not old enough to drive alone!" LOL.

That experience gave me a lot of confidence and also showed me that my grandfather trusted me to do things I didn't think I was ready for.

You make it sound like I believe what I believe because some "fatass" said it, when the reality is that I believe what I believe because I've lived it. This isn't directly related to my example, but the truth is that you're never going to experience the best this world has to offer living in safety, behind the fence of limitations you claim make you more free.
 
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Hachiman_sl

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Big Phoenix_sl said:
Wouldnt that be a failure of our health or government institutions to let such people freely walk around in society?
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As I mentioned in a previous post, if I am diagnosed with Epilepsy, my doctor will notify the DMV and my license will be suspended until my symptoms are under control. A good start would be having a working system in place that prohibits mentally ill, potentially violent patients from purchasing firearms. Would that stop them from stealing, borrowing, whatever? No, but they didn't have to resort to ANY sort of extra effort.

To answer your question specifically - I don't think that just because someone is potentially violent due to mental illness we should lock them up. I just don't think they should be able to buy firearms as easily as someone who isn't mentally ill.

Your guy - Florida State
My guy - Harvard

A study of gun use in the 1990s, by David Hemenway at the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, claimed that criminal use of guns is far more common than self-defense use of guns.[14] Kleck claims that Hemenway's own surveys confirmed Kleck's conclusion that defensive gun use numbers at least in the hundreds of thousands each year, and that a far larger number of surveys (at least 20) have shown that defensive uses outnumbered criminal uses.;[15] however, the Hemenway study just cited gives no such figure and says in its conclusion, "We might expect that unlawful 'self-defense' gun uses will outnumber the legitimate and socially beneficial ones." Critics, including Hemenway, respond that these estimates are difficult to reconcile with comparable crime statistics, are subject to a high degree of sampling error, and that "because of differences in coverage and potential response errors, what exactly these surveys measure remains uncertain; mere repetition does not eliminate bias".[16] In another article, Hemenway notes that Kleck has armed women preventing 40% of all sexual assaults, a percentage he considers unlikely because few women go armed. In the same article, Hemenway notes that Kleck's survey shows armed citizens wounding or killing attackers 207,000 times in one year, contrasted against the total of around 100,000 Americans wounded or killed, accidentally or intentionally, in a typical year.[17]
 
Sebudai

Sebudai

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The point is, whenever we restrict certain freedoms, it almost always leads to an expansion of other freedoms. You guys frame these issues as though it's always a 1:1 trade-off of freedom for security. It's not. It never is. I mean look at fucking tad10. He immediately equates it to slavery, and you take his side. Unbelievable.
 
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Faiona_sl

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Hachiman_sl said:
Again, I don't think the average American should be prohibited from owning a firearm. I DO happen to think that the odds of anyone ever having to kill someone in self defense is highly unlikely. I also believe that the average joe who happened to be armed in public when someone started shooting would do what everyone else does - piss their pants and run. A weekend NRA class and shooting soda cans won't turn you into John Wayne.
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It does happen a lot more than you think, people defending themselves with their guns. You just don't really hear about it. Found a website that seems pretty good at collecting articles about the incidents where guns are used in self defense.http://gunssavelives.net/

I agree though, related to getting a gun and mental illnesses. Things definitely need to be changed in regard to that.
 
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Hachiman_sl

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Faiona_sl said:

It does happen a lot more than you think, people defending themselves with their guns. You just don't really hear about it. Found a website that seems pretty good at collecting articles about the incidents where guns are used in self defense.http://gunssavelives.net/

I agree though, related to getting a gun and mental illnesses. Things definitely need to be changed in regard to that.
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Even if you agree with the study cited above (2,000,000 gun defenses every year in the US), that means you have a .006 chance of having to defend yourself with a firearm, and I doubt many of us live in the hood or hang out with drug dealers. No, it doesn't happen more than I think.
 
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Flunklesnarkin_sl

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The point he's trying to make is it isn't the gun, it's the retard behind the gun.

Yes, guns make killing easier because that's what it's designed to do, but the most important aspect of a guns operation is the retard behind it.

If you make sure the retard owning / operating the gun isn't , well a retard / insane / unstable, then there shouldn't be a problem with owning one.

That point is lost on people who want to out right ban guns. Better ways to detect the unstable / retarded people should be discussed imo, not an outright ban.
 
Tmac

Tmac

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Sebudai_sl said:
The point is, whenever we restrict certain freedoms, it almost always leads to an expansion of other freedoms. You guys frame these issues as though it's always a 1:1 trade-off of freedom for security. It's not. It never is. I mean look at fucking tad10. He immediately equates it to slavery, and you take his side. Unbelievable.
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Honestly, we haven't discussed the topic for you to bring out the maths mang. We're talking about one issue, so that ratio should read more like, "1 topic discussed: 1 opinion given". I didn't stand up in my chair and slow clap to Tad's post, I laughed at it...because it was both ridiculous and funny. Why so srs?
 
Tmac

Tmac

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Flunklesnarkin_sl said:
That point is lost on people who want to out right ban guns. Better ways to detect the unstable / retarded people should be discussed imo, not an outright ban.
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The point is lost on people who think their own beliefs trump anyone who disagrees, regardless of statistics, precedence, and law.
 
H

Hachiman_sl

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Flunklesnarkin_sl said:
The point he's trying to make is it isn't the gun, it's the retard behind the gun.

Yes, guns make killing easier because that's what it's designed to do, but the most important aspect of a guns operation is the retard behind it.

If you make sure the retard owning / operating the gun isn't , well a retard / insane / unstable, then there shouldn't be a problem with owning one.

That point is lost on people who want to out right ban guns. Better ways to detect the unstable / retarded people should be discussed imo, not an outright ban.
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Correct.

If I'm not mistaken, there are more gun owners in Canada per capita than the US, but less gun violence.

Common sense law and regulation actually can help as well as taking novel approaches to preventing crime.
Great read:http://www.livescience.com/25167-mur...ontagious.html
 
Sebudai

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Tmac47_sl said:
Honestly, we haven't discussed the topic for you to bring out the maths mang. We're talking about one issue, so that ratio should read more like, "1 topic discussed: 1 opinion given". I didn't stand up in my chair and slow clap to Tad's post, I laughed at it...because it was both ridiculous and funny. Why so srs?
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I like your unicorns, but certain buzzwords like "liberty" and "freedoms" or quoting the founding fathers--those are my triggers. I can't help it anymore.
 
Tmac

Tmac

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Sebudai_sl said:
I like your unicorns, but certain buzzwords like "liberty" and "freedoms" or quoting the founding fathers--those are my triggers. I can't help it anymore.
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S'all good brah. Come ride the unicorns, the grass is greener here.
 
M

MossyBank

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Looks like this guy was an idiot from 4chan, go figure.

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E: It's probably photoshoped, but it wouldn't surprise me. :/

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Flipmode

Flipmode

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Eomer_sl said:
It's ridiculous to use such incidents as some sort of equivalent counterpoint to US gun violence. The reality is that the US murder rate is pretty much double to quadruple what it is in most other developed countries, and gun violence is generally an order of magnitude higher. Yes, if someone truly wants to cause others harm, they're probably going to find a means of doing so. But when your country has a murder rate comparable to Yemen, Palestine, Laos, Turkmenistan and Niger amongst others you really need to take a step back and realize you sound like an idiot pulling out isolated examples of mass violence from other countries with murder rates a fraction of yours.

United States: 4.2 homicides per 100k
Japan: 0.3 homicides per 100k

Keep in mind I'm not saying that gun control or lack thereof is the sole or even a major reason for the difference in murder rates in Japan and the US. It just chaps my ass when I hear people make idiotic statements along the lines of "yeah but if he couldn't buy a handgun he'd just murder 15 people with a hunting knife instead!" The US has a bunch of problems that cause it's high murder rate, many of them having nothing to do with guns.
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I think a lot of these shootings have mental instability, cultural or socioeconomic motivations most of the time. Shit is kinda fucked up in the US these days and people are angry and/or racist irrational morons. People keep trying to blame the guns. They are the symptom. The problem is people. And short of brainwashing and outlawing free thought, you can't fix that.
 
Szeth

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It's the reasoning behind them as I see it Chaos. Do you honestly think that someone could give a valid reason why they need that body armor? I know it's a fairly weak argument, especially for assault rifles(which I don't necessarily support), but at least with hunting rifles and pistols you can make an argument.

Edit: replied to a page 2 post whoops.
 
Caliane

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Hachiman_sl said:
As I mentioned in a previous post, if I am diagnosed with Epilepsy, my doctor will notify the DMV and my license will be suspended until my symptoms are under control. A good start would be having a working system in place that prohibits mentally ill, potentially violent patients from purchasing firearms. Would that stop them from stealing, borrowing, whatever? No, but they didn't have to resort to ANY sort of extra effort.

To answer your question specifically - I don't think that just because someone is potentially violent due to mental illness we should lock them up. I just don't think they should be able to buy firearms as easily as someone who isn't mentally ill.

Your guy - Florida State
My guy - Harvard

A study of gun use in the 1990s, by David Hemenway at the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, claimed that criminal use of guns is far more common than self-defense use of guns.[14] Kleck claims that Hemenway's own surveys confirmed Kleck's conclusion that defensive gun use numbers at least in the hundreds of thousands each year, and that a far larger number of surveys (at least 20) have shown that defensive uses outnumbered criminal uses.;[15] however, the Hemenway study just cited gives no such figure and says in its conclusion, "We might expect that unlawful 'self-defense' gun uses will outnumber the legitimate and socially beneficial ones." Critics, including Hemenway, respond that these estimates are difficult to reconcile with comparable crime statistics, are subject to a high degree of sampling error, and that "because of differences in coverage and potential response errors, what exactly these surveys measure remains uncertain; mere repetition does not eliminate bias".[16] In another article, Hemenway notes that Kleck has armed women preventing 40% of all sexual assaults, a percentage he considers unlikely because few women go armed. In the same article, Hemenway notes that Kleck's survey shows armed citizens wounding or killing attackers 207,000 times in one year, contrasted against the total of around 100,000 Americans wounded or killed, accidentally or intentionally, in a typical year.[17]
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And criminal use of guns is far less common then suicide.
Even rampages like this. That is what they are. Suicides. People that want to go out in a blaze of glory in the spotlight. Make a scene. Media is partly to blame here. Giving these fucksticks their moment of fame just encourages more clowns. It needs to be treated like flashers, and the like at sporting events. Don't release names, don't show it live, etc. Do not give the assholes what they want. Attention.

"Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.
Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.
Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.
Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides."

Again, its a mental health issue, not a gun issue.

A few people here are going totally the wrong directing. treating depression like a crime. FFS, that is how you make people NEVER get treatment. Who in their right mind would GO to a doctor, if they suspect they have a problem, if it makes them get a visit from the FBI?

People do not get treatment, because the mental issues are treated by society as a weakness, and huge negative perception.


I'll drop the personally drama, and say. I will never have a gun in my house for that first reason. I've been depressed since I was 15. If I had a gun, I would be dead by now. That said, I certainly don't blame guns. and prohibition of guns is just as dumb as prohibition of certain drugs/alcohol.
 
BrutulTM

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I heard an interview with Micheal Moore a while back where he said that he realized while making "Bowling for Columbine" that US violence would probably not be solved by gun control. According to him, Americans kill more people with knives, clubs, etc. than our European counterparts even though we have much better access to guns than they do.

"The African-American community's massive homicide rate accounts for most of America's murders
This rate is around 26 per 100,000, but reached as high as 50.4 in 1991 - figures similar to or higher than Russia's enormous homicide rate (19.9 in 1997). The 'white' community in America, which also includes most Hispanics, has a much lower homicide rate at around three per 100,000. This number is not particularly out of line for Anglosphere countries, although certainly at the higher end.
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That is a pretty stunning piece of data. One that will never be brought up in any political discussion about this sort of thing.

Also, FWIW, my sister has epilepsy and I can tell you that having her license taken away did not actually stop her from driving. Shocking huh?
 
Tuco

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Tmac47_sl said:
Second amendment says otherwise. So doesBenjamin Franklinwho says, "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
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Stop besmirching the good reputation of Mr. Franklin with misquotes. The real quote is:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Source: Your own link).

So is owning a fully automatic rifle or light machine gun an essential liberty? Maybe to some people.
 
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