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Lambourne

Lambourne

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I have a 40" Samsung M87 that's a few years old which has been fine but it doesn't support 24p properly and I can never get the audio sync quite right. I read somewhere that newer TV's can tell the receiver how much to delay the audio by? Is this something they all have now?

I was eyeballing that 50" Panasonic plasma too, anyone have any HTPC experiences with it? Don't care about 3D or any of the smart tv stuff but I want good 24fps and 30/60fps playback windows. My setup is HTPC (windows 7) via HDMI to a Yamaha RX-V765 receiver, HDMI to TV.
 
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forin

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If HTPC is going to be the main use of the tv then I do not recommend Panasonic Plasmas. They are unable to display full RGB 4:4:4, which is what pc's output with. Here is a nice link on AVS explaining RGB 4:4:4 and why its important.http://www.avsforum.com/t/1381724/of...ampling-thread

Samsung Plasmas (which are very close to Panasonic in quality) are able to fully display RGB 4:4:4. The problem is their input lag is about 10-20ms more than Panasonic. Its still under 40ms though.
 
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Sean_sl

shitlord
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Er, that's not true forin, at least not for newer TVs. That list was last updated in 2011 heh. The 2013 models definitely do Full Range RGB and 4:4:4.
 
Void

Void

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forin_sl said:
If HTPC is going to be the main use of the tv then I do not recommend Panasonic Plasmas. They are unable to display full RGB 4:4:4, which is what pc's output with. Here is a nice link on AVS explaining RGB 4:4:4 and why its important.http://www.avsforum.com/t/1381724/of...ampling-thread

Samsung Plasmas (which are very close to Panasonic in quality) are able to fully display RGB 4:4:4. The problem is their input lag is about 10-20ms more than Panasonic. Its still under 40ms though.
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I do not know enough about any of this 4:4:4 stuff to speak with any authority, but would this have any effect whatsoever on actually watching movies/shows through the HTPC? In that article it states that all TV, bluray, etc. is 4:2:2 or less anyway so not having 4:4:4 is fine...but if it is being output through the computer first, does that make a difference? Because the only thing I ever use the actual computer part of my HTPC for is installing drivers and such, 99% of the time I'm just scrolling through XBMC and then playing the program. It *looks* perfectly fine to me, but I'm sure I'd never know the difference anyway.

In other words, does a bluray recorded in 4:2:2 (or whatever), being output in 4:4:4 by a computer, to a TV that is only capable of 4:2:2, suffer any degradation? I didn't read that entire article but I couldn't find an answer. I have no idea if my 2012 Panasonic plasma does 4:4:4, hell I never knew that existed until you linked that article, but all I ever plan to do is watch shows on it. If I want to play a game I'll go in the other room and play it on my gaming PC.
 
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Sean_sl

shitlord
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Vvoid_sl said:
I do not know enough about any of this 4:4:4 stuff to speak with any authority, but would this have any effect whatsoever on actually watching movies/shows through the HTPC? In that article it states that all TV, bluray, etc. is 4:2:2 or less anyway so not having 4:4:4 is fine...but if it is being output through the computer first, does that make a difference? Because the only thing I ever use the actual computer part of my HTPC for is installing drivers and such, 99% of the time I'm just scrolling through XBMC and then playing the program. It *looks* perfectly fine to me, but I'm sure I'd never know the difference anyway.

In other words, does a bluray recorded in 4:2:2 (or whatever), being output in 4:4:4 by a computer, to a TV that is only capable of 4:2:2, suffer any degradation? I didn't read that entire article but I couldn't find an answer. I have no idea if my 2012 Panasonic plasma does 4:4:4, hell I never knew that existed until you linked that article, but all I ever plan to do is watch shows on it. If I want to play a game I'll go in the other room and play it on my gaming PC.
Click to expand...
It's completely irrelevant unless you have the content to support it, yes. Pretty much every encoded media file is actually 4:2:0.
 
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forin

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Sean_sl said:
Er, that's not true forin, at least not for newer TVs. That list was last updated in 2011 heh. The 2013 models definitely do Full Range RGB and 4:4:4.
Click to expand...
Hey Sean, actually they accept the RGB 4:4:4 but are unable to display it properly. I used that link as a guide as to why RGB 4:4:4 is important for pc use. You are right and the TV list is outdated. Here is a couple links from a review site that I use that tests 4:4:4 (only place where I have seen it tested officially)

Just scroll to the bottom to the list, RGB 4:4:4 is the last test in the chart.

This years Panasonic and Samsung
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...1305062961.htm
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsu...1305012945.htm

Last years Panasonic and Samsung
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...ture%20Quality
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsu...ge=Calibration

Vvoid
You are correct if your just watching movies or tv you will not see any problems which due to being encoded in 4:2:0. If all you intend to do is hook a blue ray player and watch tv exclusively from it then there is nothing to worry about. If Lambourne intends to use it as a HTPC then he will see the color smearing when using the HTPC as a pc and during gaming.

Nothing against Panasonic plasmas, they are truly world class. If I was in the market I would definitely purchase one for tv/movies. For HTPC/gaming I would sacrifice some black level and go with the full 4:4:4 reproduction.
 
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Sean_sl

shitlord
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The 2013 model I have (the ST60) displays it properly.

Which is actually the US equivalent of this model:http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...1303312779.htm

The one you linked is the ZT60 equivalent, which I doubt anyone here is going to buy because it's absurdly expensive. The S60, ST60, and VT60 would be this year's US models that are for most consumers. Unfortunately we do not get the GT60.

Also I don't know anyone who uses "HTPCs" for Gaming.
 
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forin

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Hey Sean,

I am not sure if you TV is hooked up to a pc or not but if it is could you run this quick test and check. If not that's fine, I would like to know for sure if it can pass because I wouldn't mind ordering a 65 inch Panasonic
smile.png


Test from AVS
Quick-and-Dirty Method (a.k.a., Red-Magenta Method): Open the image found here:http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/y...-rgb-1080p.png. Make sure you're at 100% zoom, and pay special attention to the Red and Magenta columns. On a 4:4:4 TV, the "Red" and "Magenta" text will be nice and sharp just like the text in the other columns. On a non-4:4:4 TV, the "Red" and "Magenta" text will be noticeably fuzzy, but the text in the other columns will be nice and sharp.


FYI I used to think my Pioneer was running RGB 4:4:4 then I ran the test and realized it wasn't. Once I changed the settings in the TV to display RGB it was able to pass all of the tests. After which I had a decrease in input lag (less processing), an increase in sharpness for gaming (after setting the PS3/Xbox to RGB output) and general pc use on the HTPC. I was unable to see a difference for movies.

smile.png
 
Void

Void

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forin_sl said:
Vvoid
You are correct if your just watching movies or tv you will not see any problems which due to being encoded in 4:2:0. If all you intend to do is hook a blue ray player and watch tv exclusively from it then there is nothing to worry about. If Lambourne intends to use it as a HTPC then he will see the color smearing when using the HTPC as a pc and during gaming.
Click to expand...
I think you answered my question, but I just want to be clear. I do not have a bluray player hooked up. I download bluray rips, hdtv rips, etc. So everything is coming through the HTPC completely, and supposedly being output to my TV in 4:4:4 according to what you said. Obviously it didn't start in 4:4:4, but it is being output that way from the PC. Does this "up and down converting" or whatever term you would use for it, alter the picture in any way? Or since it was recorded in 4:2:0 to begin with, will it pretty much just "pass through" and output exactly as recorded? Because that's all I care about, this is mostly a glorified media streamer for me is all.

I have the 2012 version of what Sean has (ST55 instead of ST60 is all), and you linked the VT, so I'm not sure if mine would have it or not. I'll do that test when I get home to see, if I remember.
 
Lambourne

Lambourne

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I won't be using the HTPC for gaming, it's strictly to watch tv series and movies. I see it does support ARC (audio return channel) over HDMI. Does this include input lag / lip sync correction? My current TV does not support this so I'm always having to adjust audio delay manually on the PC. If it was a fixed correction it wouldn't be that bad but it seems to vary depending on the input signal.
 
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forin

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Hey vvoid.

If your TV is able to correctly use a RGB 4:4:4 signal and everything is setup correct then while the pc is being used as a PC (surfing the net, gaming, adobe etc.) you will have proper chroma sampling. Everything should have a nice crisp lines with no fringing. Here is an example from Wiki.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...riginal444.png

Now movies/tv as you said are encoded in YUV 4:2:0. This means that there is going to be a conversion taking place in the pc (video renderer) converting the movie from YUV to RGB. This conversion always happens some where in the chain (some times even multiple times) regardless if its source is a pc or a disk player. Notice the slight ringing, haloing and loss of color resolution in this picture when compared to the previous link.

Another wiki example
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...sive-still.png

It is best to have as few conversions as possible. Every time something has to convert the signal there will be a loss in image quality. The issues with TVs are that they display the final image in RGB. Some tvs are able to take an RGB signal not touch it and display a perfect RGB image. Some tvs accept an RGB signal and manipulate it in some way (conversion) before displaying it in RGB. It really depends on the manufacturer and the video processing they use in the display.

A word of warning, I feel more comfortable talking about audio than in video so I hope this makes sense ( and is correct)
 
Void

Void

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Lambourne_sl said:
I won't be using the HTPC for gaming, it's strictly to watch tv series and movies. I see it does support ARC (audio return channel) over HDMI. Does this include input lag / lip sync correction? My current TV does not support this so I'm always having to adjust audio delay manually on the PC. If it was a fixed correction it wouldn't be that bad but it seems to vary depending on the input signal.
Click to expand...
I'm assuming you are still talking about the Panasonic plasmas at this point.

All I know is that I never have to mess with audio delay unless the rip itself is obviously fucked up. I have no idea if that means it is the ARC doing it or what, because I have no technical knowledge to go off of, but the lip syncing seems to work perfectly for me. Perhaps someone else can give a more technical answer.

forin, I'll check out those tests tonight, and the settings on my TV (I understand some TVs require you to select a specific PC mode to enable the 4:4:4, which I obviously haven't done because I didn't even know it was a thing) when I'm home and report back. Thanks for the info.
 
Void

Void

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forin_sl said:
Hey vvoid.

If your TV is able to correctly use a RGB 4:4:4 signal and everything is setup correct then while the pc is being used as a PC (surfing the net, gaming, adobe etc.) you will have proper chroma sampling. Everything should have a nice crisp lines with no fringing. Here is an example from Wiki.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...riginal444.png

Now movies/tv as you said are encoded in YUV 4:2:0. This means that there is going to be a conversion taking place in the pc (video renderer) converting the movie from YUV to RGB. This conversion always happens some where in the chain (some times even multiple times) regardless if its source is a pc or a disk player. Notice the slight ringing, haloing and loss of color resolution in this picture when compared to the previous link.

Another wiki example
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...sive-still.png

It is best to have as few conversions as possible. Every time something has to convert the signal there will be a loss in image quality. The issues with TVs are that they display the final image in RGB. Some tvs are able to take an RGB signal not touch it and display a perfect RGB image. Some tvs accept an RGB signal and manipulate it in some way (conversion) before displaying it in RGB. It really depends on the manufacturer and the video processing they use in the display.

A word of warning, I feel more comfortable talking about audio than in video so I hope this makes sense ( and is correct)
Click to expand...
Mine didn't pass, and I confirmed it by looking at my exact model number. Turns out mine is just the 55" version of the 50" he had at the bottom of that AVS article, which also failed. That's fine though, as I don't notice anything when watching actual movies or shows, and according to Sean the newer versions do it just fine so unless someone is buying used/old stock they don't have to worry. I'm sure by the time I'm in the market for another one there will be something else entirely to worry about, but for the time being I doubt I would even notice the difference watching movies. Still, it is good to find things like this out for the people that are looking right now, so thanks for all the info.
 
Joeboo

Joeboo

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True, it's a shit brand but it puts us one step closer to someone decent (Samsung, LG, Panasonic, Vizio, whoever) coming out with a relatively affordable 4K device. Every little step helps.
 
Eomer

Eomer

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Any manufacturers doing TV's bigger than 90" yet? That aren't ridiculously expensive? 1080p is fine. Seems like most top out at 90".
 
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