Marriage and the Power of Divorce

Khane

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How is all of this setup? Did you pay for her speeding ticket and you specifically said she now has to pickup your dry cleaning? Or did you pay for a vacation to Thailand and hoped she'd connect the dots to home cooked meals every night?

Or is it even more nebulous than that. You have a running meter in your head of all the nice things you've done for her vs. extra effort from her, normalized by incomes?
You're making it sound sinister. It's just an expectation that because we're in a relationship that means we work together and do things for each other. It doesn't mean you just sit back and enjoy everything that's done for you and act like you're entitled to it because you're a woman and I'm a man and that's just how it works.
 

a_skeleton_03

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You're making it sound sinister. It's just an expectation that because we're in a relationship that means we work together and do things for each other. It doesn't mean you just sit back and enjoy everything that's done for you and act like you're entitled to it because you're a woman and I'm a man and that's just how it works.
Belittles everyone for not having open communication according to his standard and then turns around and wants expectations that he can't spell out and his girlfriend should magically know about.

~ just single guy things
 

Khane

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Well I guess you could read it that way...

By the way I've never been silent about my expectations with any woman I've dated. They know exactly where I stand, often to their dismay.
 

Cad

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On the one hand, I don't think just because I make more it means I can kick back after work while my wife serves me. I don't think I'm somehow done when I clock out of work while she has to "earn her keep."

On the other hand, if someone makes a fraction of what you make, you'd think there'd be some gratitude and ackowledgment and the low-earner would go out of their way to make sure you're happy and cared for, even if it's not explicit you-will-service-me type stuff. You'd think they'd be happy to be being taken care of........unless..... they feel entitled to it, which is a huge red flag.
 

a_skeleton_03

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This is why my wife and I have a great relationship, she makes about 30k more than me and we still keep it fairly equal. I would cook every day except she wouldn't like the variety of food I choose. I do a portion of the meals though but it's dynamic and not a static amount. She does the laundry because she is OCD about how it is done, same with the cleaning. Everything else in life just happens how it happens.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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How is all of this setup? Did you pay for her speeding ticket and you specifically said she now has to pickup your dry cleaning? Or did you pay for a vacation to Thailand and hoped she'd connect the dots to home cooked meals every night?

Or is it even more nebulous than that. You have a running meter in your head of all the nice things you've done for her vs. extra effort from her, normalized by incomes?
Khane nailed it, but to expound on it further there is no "setup". The way it usually goes? She gets ticket or tires blow and she was just stressing the week before how she's cash strapped. I bail her out of both, no questions asked. She's ecstatic. She hasn't travelled anywhere outside the US/Mexico, and even then it was on the cheap. I take her to Thailand, she gets to ride elephants and see things she's never imagined. She's ecstatic. The list goes on-- you get the point. Yet at some point into the relationship I'm still paying for everything, planning everything, driving her everywhere we go, etc. I ask myself, "what am I getting out of this besides sex, because it seems I'm doing everything. I do all the traditional man stuff, but get none of the traditional female stuff in return". So yeah, at that point I'll usually make it an issue and ask them to start showing some appreciation beyond being a wallflower.. Like there was one girlfriend that would repeatedly point out that my undershirts had holes in them, and all that could go through my head is how I've been there emotionally for this chick with her workplace drama, and bailed her out of things to the tune of 3K over the last few months, yet she can't even think of picking me up some undershirts at the mall she at literally every fucking week"?

If some girlfriend had come along in my twenties when I was dead broke and stressing about rent/creditors, and not only cared about me but helped me financially, you can be damn well sure I'd feel appreciative and find ways to show it.. Many women just feel entitled these days..
 

a_skeleton_03

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I give Khane a lot of shit and it is not anywhere near deserved I bet, we just see things differently. That being said I could not date in the current landscape. I would be lost. He manages it quite well. I would fail miserably.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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On the other hand, if someone makes a fraction of what you make, you'd think there'd be some gratitude and ackowledgment and the low-earner would go out of their way to make sure you're happy and cared for, even if it's not explicit you-will-service-me type stuff. You'd think they'd be happy to be being taken care of........unless..... they feel entitled to it, which is a huge red flag.
You want to redefine "entitlement"?

I dated a chick with Celiac for two months, and after realizing she was the entitled type and it would be a one way street, I dumped her. When she asked why, I told her the truth and she *freaked* the fuck out as she honestly didn't see herself as not reciprocating. When I asked her what "sacrifices" or reciprocation she had shown in the relationship you know what she came up with? "You don't understand the sacrifices I make by coming over to your place. You don't have gluten free food that I like so I have to pack a lunchbox when I stay over".

fucking mind boggling entitlement.
 

Khane

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The biggest gap in understanding here is the difference between getting married young and building a life together from the ground up, and being single well past having made your own mark on the world. I bought a house, paid off all my student loan debt, excelled at my job and kept moving upward, was able to afford to live quite comfortably and have built a life for myself, all on my own. So when I think about suddenly supporting someone who hasn't done the same and after having seen the way women have treated the situation they find themselves in with me, I get very, very wary.

It's hard to throw away your logic and reason when you get to a point like that in life and just go all in with someone who could change their mind, leave, and take away my livelihood. A livelihood they played no part in building with me. I've been taken advantage of twice before in long relationships and I just will not let it happen again.
 

Cad

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You want to redefine "entitlement"?

I dated a chick with Celiac for two months, and after realizing she was the entitled type and it would be a one way street, I dumped her. When she asked why, I told her the truth and she *freaked* the fuck out as she honestly didn't see herself as not reciprocating. When I asked her what "sacrifices" or reciprocation she had shown in the relationship you know what she came up with? "You don't understand the sacrifices I make by coming over to your place. You don't have gluten free food that I like so I have to pack a lunchbox when I stay over".

fucking mind boggling entitlement.
franco-chuckle.gif
 

Omi43221

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And also, fuck counseling. That shit has not helped anyone I know, only made shit worse. Those people have no fucking clue. LOL, the counselor we saw back in like 2003-4 was a 23 yr old dude with a hipster beard and a cardigan sweater and skinny jeans, like right out of SJW college. Fucking pathetic. Even the wife was like fuck this place. Guess what he told us to work on....
My exec and I went through 9 counselors before we felt we found one that knew what she/he was doing. Honestly to be a good counselor you have to be smart. If you start babbling this 'no shit Sherlock' cliche crap I don't see how that helps. The one we did get that was good. I wouldn't say was smarter than us but she was really good at navigating emotions. So that we felt more comfortable talking to each other.
 

Omi43221

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I give Khane a lot of shit and it is not anywhere near deserved I bet, we just see things differently. That being said I could not date in the current landscape. I would be lost. He manages it quite well. I would fail miserably.
a_skeleton_03's account hacked? ( Only plausible explanation)
 

Deathwing

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Khane nailed it, but to expound on it further there is no "setup". The way it usually goes? She gets ticket or tires blow and she was just stressing the week before how she's cash strapped. I bail her out of both, no questions asked. She's ecstatic. She hasn't travelled anywhere outside the US/Mexico, and even then it was on the cheap. I take her to Thailand, she gets to ride elephants and see things she's never imagined. She's ecstatic. The list goes on-- you get the point. Yet at some point into the relationship I'm still paying for everything, planning everything, driving her everywhere we go, etc. I ask myself, "what am I getting out of this besides sex, because it seems I'm doing everything. I do all the traditional man stuff, but get none of the traditional female stuff in return". So yeah, at that point I'll usually make it an issue and ask them to start showing some appreciation beyond being a wallflower.. Like there was one girlfriend that would repeatedly point out that my undershirts had holes in them, and all that could go through my head is how I've been there emotionally for this chick with her workplace drama, and bailed her out of things to the tune of 3K over the last few months, yet she can't even think of picking me up some undershirts at the mall she at literally every fucking week"?

If some girlfriend had come along in my twenties when I was dead broke and stressing about rent/creditors, and not only cared about me but helped me financially, you can be damn well sure I'd feel appreciative and find ways to show it.. Many women just feel entitled these days..
Fair enough. I apologize for overreacting on my earlier responses. Still, I'm not sure I would ever characterize the reciprocation in such a specific example as undershirts.

I think cad's response about expecting reciprocation through them just being happier and that affecting their actions toward you probably best sums up what I was trying to say.