Marriage and the Power of Divorce

BrutulTM said:

When I was a kid, I always imagined that married couples completely understood each other. Like you could finish each other's sentences you knew what they would think about everything. It comes as a bit of a surprise to me that even after being with people day after day for years you can still feel awkward around them, you still misunderstand them, you still hurt them by accident, you still don't know what they are going to think about some things, you still have topics that you are afraid to bring up with them. On top of that, they change over time in ways you didn't see coming. In retrospect, it probably should have been expected, but I guess I bought the fairy tale. I'm not even unhappy with my relationship, but it's just a lot harder than it looks from the outside.

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I think to some extent, it's some kind of PTSD.

So, for a long while in my current relationship, there were things I did not want to talk to her about because I "knew" how she'd react, and I didn't want to deal with it.

How did I "know?"

Well, I was basing it off the reactions I got the last time I brought up something like that, which was invariably with someone else. In this case, my ex.

The new gal correctly pointed out that she's not my ex. And isn't going to react the same way to things as she did. And you know what? She's fucking right. Different relationship, different dynamic. We interact differently.

I am sure this is what drives everything, for like Koushirou and others. There was probably a time when you were young, brought up something that was super important to you to someone who was important to you (might have even been a parent), got a reaction that was wholly out of line, and you learned "well, shit, not fuckin doing that again" and now you're 40 and you're wondering why your relationship is fucked up.

Koushirou said:

Is there like some guide to communication in general? Some ways to practice? Anything? I'm fucking terrible at it. Anytime there was a problem I would only ever bring it up once and if it got brushed aside, I just buried it and was done with it, but that's obviously a shit way to do things and I'm sure has certainly contributed to where I am now. I'm so self-conscious about being just another annoying wife/girlfriend/etc. that just bitches about everything all the time and makes their man's life hell. How do you find the balance?

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Communication is hard and takes work in a relationship. I'm sometimes still surprised with my wife about certain things not being communicated effectively . Everyone communicates differently, particularly men and women. For men the best way to communicate is directly. Women generally don't do that though. So it will take work on your part to be more direct and on his part to learn your body language.

There is a pretty big difference between expressing things that are important to you and nagging. I wouldn't worry about this as long as you are only trying to communicate important things to you, as Big P said.

OU Ariakas said:

Seananigans I saw in one of you replies that you are going through a divorce as well? Do you mind talking about how it happened and where you are in the process?

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Don't mind. I'll provide the short(er) version, and people can prompt follow-ups where interested or unclear.

Some quick history/timeline, I'm 44 (she's 38), had never been married before her, had "dated" well into the triple digits but very rarely found anyone I wanted to be around for long periods of time. We dated for 6 months back in 2017. I fell for her, but she had just exited a 7–8-year relationship (much of it married), and turned out to "not be ready for a relationship," so broke up with me. Fast forward two years to late 2019, where I had basically given up on finding any woman that I'd be interested in marrying or being with long term, and she contacted me out of the blue. We reconnected and got serious quickly, I proposed in Jan 2020 on a vacation to St Thomas USVI, we married in Dec 2022 (small ceremony with mothers and siblings, larger wedding in Apr 2023). She moved out in Jan 2024 supposedly to work on her issues, and in Nov last year said she wanted a divorce, I obliged because I saw it coming, and it's been filed but isn't finalized due to one unresolved debt ownership dispute.

From my perspective, the relationship was 90% fantastic 10% the most terrible torturous insanity imaginable. Everyone has their baggage, but that sort of trope would be underplaying her side substantially. Her parents, especially her mother, really fucked her up. Her 7–8-year relationship, her first marriage, was a disaster. Short version there is his various forms of cheating behavior (and many other negative behaviors) caused her to have a completely warped frame of reference with regard to the man she's in a relationship with. From day 1, she wasn't ever seeing me, she was seeing another version of that asshat. Any completely innocuous behavior of mine that her brain could link in any way to the behaviors of her ex would instantly become exactly what her ex did in her mind. So to her, I was a cheating asshole who was constantly looking for ways to be interested in other women. The reality is I was supremely happy with her and would never have cheated on her, and had literally zero interest in any other woman. I was so relieved to have finally found someone I could feel good being with, and not have to just tolerate, long term. She fit me perfectly, and I'm fairly sure absent her massive baggage and preconceived notions, I fit her perfectly as well.

I pleaded with her to get help and work through her issues, and to her credit she did eventually get with someone doing EMDR which had immediate and noticeable results. So much so, that I probably lulled myself into a false sense of security. The lady she was doing the EMDR with "retired" due to cancer (can't honestly remember if she died, or just retired - fairly sure the latter). After this, she never did really try to find a replacement, and things got worse again. The manifestation of the 90% 10% split I outlined above was that she would have certain "trigger" points that would reframe things and put her in a danger zone of sorts, in her mind. She'd observe a behavior that felt to her like something her ex did, and things would turn insane. Add to that, relationship milestones. When she moved in with me in March 2020, shit hit the fan because all of a sudden there were real stakes. We powered through that, barely, and then again in 2023 when we had the wedding, another wave of shit hit the fan. Oddly the 2022 official legal marriage didn't seem to trigger anything, just the big wedding. The honeymoon was a disaster.

I can't express how maddening it is to be constantly accused of doing things you are not doing, or feeling things you are not feeling, or having motivations that you would never have. From my perspective, things would be fantastic, then all of a sudden BAM! Now I'm trying to deal with something that didn't actually happen. Her negative feelings controlled our entire relationship. At points in late 2023 I started having suicidal ideation, something I'd never experienced. Never had any urges, but during the "insane times," I'd find myself imagining just blowing my brains out to escape the insanity. At first I hadn't allowed myself to think about divorce, so I actually had to allow myself to be open to that option as an escape route.

Anyhoo, I've worked through everything over the past year, and I'd say I'm fine. I'm a "how things work" type of person, so after spending a few months digging into certain concepts and fully understanding the situation, I reconciled it. I'm *seriously* disappointed in her for never really sacking up and addressing the issues, and by extension disappointed in myself for not finding a way to convince her properly. Another maddening aspect was knowing exactly what the issue was, but since the solution could never come from me, and she was unwilling to find another person to continue EMDR with, well... here I am. Not having any power to fix something you can see clearly is pretty shitty.

Jesus, this was the short version supposedly. I'll stop there. It's highly truncated obviously, and who knows if it comes across accurately. Feel free to ask follow-ups.

Some people feed on that uncertainty and chaos in relationships. She sounds like one of them.

Seananigans said:

Anyhoo, I've worked through everything over the past year, and I'd say I'm fine. I'm a "how things work" type of person, so after spending a few months digging into certain concepts and fully understanding the situation, I reconciled it. I'm *seriously* disappointed in her for never really sacking up and addressing the issues, and by extension disappointed in myself for not finding a way to convince her properly. Another maddening aspect was knowing exactly what the issue was, but since the solution could never come from me, and she was unwilling to find another person to continue EMDR with, well... here I am. Not having any power to fix something you can see clearly is pretty shitty.

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This may as well have been written by me. It's super frustrating being the only one putting any effort into a relationship because you wanted it to succeed. I should have been married for like 70-80 fucking years, but no matter how hard you try, you can't make someone get help for shit they don't want to get. It's tremendously disappointing, but you can't be expected to complete every Herculean task yourself.

Seananigans said:

From my perspective, the relationship was 90% fantastic 10% the most terrible torturous insanity imaginable.

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She bipolar by chance? As that quote is exactly how Id describe the relationship I was in 7 years ago and she was bipolar

Vast majority of time it was great, but every 5-6 months somehow someway its like a nuclear bomb went off.

Big Phoenix said:

She bipolar by chance? As that quote is exactly how Id describe the relationship I was in 7 years ago and she was bipolar

Vast majority of time it was great, but every 5-6 months somehow someway its like a nuclear bomb went off.

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Izo said:

My thoughts as well. EMDR is no cure for underlying mental illness afaik. Then again I'd have gone propofol if a bitch did that to me. Life's too short to date loonies.

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Kirun said:

Sounds like you were the victim of an Alpha Widow mixed with a bit of Bi-polar and/or BPD.

For some reason those spicy ass bitches really are my "type", but holy fuck is it maddening being in a relationship with one. I'm glad my wife is pretty boring. Despite those times where I want crazier sex or other shit a wacky BPD chick gets you, the other 95% of the shit they bring isn't worth the mind-blowing sex.

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Nah, not bi-polar, although I understand why you'd draw that conclusion. For one, the psych people she talked to said she wasn't bi-polar. For two, ALL of the "10%" involved triggers regarding her past trauma with the ex that she should have left waaaay before hitting the 7-8 year mark. Side note, that kind of loyalty was actually something I considered a positive. A silver lining of the shitshow that was her past relationship experience.

All of the issues we had involved her believing something I was doing was in fact something it was not. As an example: we both worked from home, her always, and me often. When she would hear computer noises from my office, things like Teams message notifications, email notifications, etc., on her end she was on edge, fight-or-flight mode, wondering what woman I was talking to. Always. I honestly can't imagine constantly being on edge like that, it must really suck for her. You'd think something like that would be enough motivation to do the (admittedly tough) work to resolve those issues. Alas.

One recurring thing was me supposedly "checking out" other women when we were out in public together. To the point where she would accuse me of staring at a woman that I legitimately did not know existed, sometimes because she was not even in my line of sight (but was in my wife's line of sight). If a head movement of mine could possibly be construed as me glancing at another woman, that was what happened in her mind. I dreaded going out in public with my wife, because I knew that no matter what I did, if there was a woman my wife considered a threat, I'd be accused of checking her out.

My understanding of bi-polar is that the swings happen somewhat arbitrarily and randomly. These issues always had an identifiable root trigger based on her PTSD with her ex. BPD doesn't really fit either, it wasn't manipulation or anything, it was legitimate fear that I was going to leave her for someone else. She has severe insecurity and self-worth issues, for reasons of her parents as well as staying with a man who treated her the way he did. I'd say she's primarily anxious attachment style, but she actually has most of the behaviors of BOTH anxious and avoidant styles. She was never able to attach to me properly, thus not able to trust me, thus no matter how many times I proved her wrong in real time about her fears, it didn't matter. Fucking exhausting.

Seananigans said:

EMDR

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Izo said:

My thoughts as well. EMDR is no cure for underlying mental illness afaik.

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What the fuck? Never heard of this before. I don't feel like doing a deep dive but can you give me the cliffs notes on how eye movement helps with trauma?

Hoss said:

What the fuck? Never heard of this before. I don't feel like doing a deep dive but can you give me the cliffs notes on how eye movement helps with trauma?

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My limited layman understanding is that the “experts” don’t even truly know why. It supposedly has to do with what your eyes do naturally when you recall information. Making the eye movements intentionally somehow enhances the recall, or makes it easier to process the trauma, or something.

Koushirou
I think it boils down to men just want to solve problems (so they can shut down and decompress) while women just want to vent (an not actually solve the problem). I believe this is down to how we are wired, but gay couples seem to also end up in this dynamic in some form or another probably because its built in social behavior in our genes.

Like others have said, you first have to figure out how to communicate what is really an issue vs what is just venting frustration over trivial shit. This goes both ways, of course. From your side of things, this also entails recognizing and sorting bullshit in your head your emotions are creating vs tangible reality. For the man's part, he has to make sure he is emotionally available and not to fall into ruts because everything is going great from his end of things (women bore easily and its the doom of relationships to be complacent). The rest is really a learning process, plain and simple.

Communication in general is really just the art of not giving a shit of what others think of you, as fear is what holds most people back from communicating. Once you let go of that fear, the rest is very easy. Being someone who sings in front of crowds regularly without any fear, communication comes more easily to me than most. If you don't have any hobby or outlet like that, then the best advice is to find some speaking group thing like Toastmasters or something, then fake it til you make it. That is how my wife overcame her shyness, incidentally. That and hours of Kareoke and Rock Band. Once that fear is gone, you will never have problems communicating.