Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Sylas

Sylas

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Hey not really following this game but the shit flinging between you guys has intrigued me.

How true to classic eq is this going to be? ie, will you be able to solo on all classes or will it be forced grouping? Sure a handful of classes could solo in eq, but by and large most classes were forced to group to gain any exp.

I have a feeling most of the "issues" you guys associate with instancing is actually a result of being able to solo to cap and never having to group or rely on any other player.
 
Kriptini

Kriptini

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From what I understand, group play is the core focus but there will be some classes that are naturally good at soloing.
 
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Torrid

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Neranja said:
I can't find you solution, so could you please link me to your post with it?
Click to expand...

Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Instancing is a bad solution to the problem of content monopolization. It works, but at great cost. Unfortunately because it does work it's the lazy go-to solution and developers don't even try to come up with better ideas. I give Vanguard credit for trying.
www.firesofheaven.org www.firesofheaven.org

Neranja said:
There are a lot, but you probably never heard of them because what most people underestimate is marketing/publishing. And most games on the indie side also fizzle out after a time. There are however some games that make it even to Steam, for example Project Gorgon that I linked. Then there's Albion, who also made it to Steam.
...
You could even just rent the Hero Engine and make an MMO, just look at the "Spotlight Games Currently in Development" on this page:

HeroEngine - Hero Games

HeroEngine is an all in one game development engine. The only game engine that allows real time updates and collaborative development no matter where your developers are located at in the world.
heroengine.com heroengine.com

Excursion time: Back in the days there was a divide in the MUD playerbase between DikuMUD and the more roleplaying-oriented MUDs, mostly based on LPmud. DikuMUD was derided as "stupid hack&slay game for munchkins".
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Sure, the old roleplay MUDs would be an example of the higher creativity levels back in the old days because creating worlds is much easier when they're text based.

I've heard of almost everything you're mentioning to me. Although not Albion which looks more like a mobile ARPG than MMORPRG. I want an EQ-like game so I'm not stuck playing EQ emus for the rest of my life. If they were easy to make then surely somebody would have made one by now?

Hero Engine's spotlight page only lists a few games that are even out of beta and that includes SWTOR and Elder Scrolls. The Repopulation is the only indie game using hero engine to come out of beta? I've known about that middleware since before SWTOR came out a decade ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hero Engine does not provide a full generic high fantasy asset library allowing for games to immediately have humans, elves, orcs, dragons, weapons & armor etc. Also if I were a developer I'd be concerned about becoming so reliant on that company instead of using open source and public domain options. (or a larger company like Unity) The FAQ states clearly that if your subscription lapses they will delete your world after some time and god knows what happens if they fold.

Neranja said:
No, but many attempts were made. For example, with the success of WoW Sun MIcrosystems tried to establish Java as a server-side language and wanted to create a turnkey server solution architecture for MMO games. Nowadays all mentions of it were scrubbed from the Web, especially after Oracle bought them.
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I've used a couple of these actually: Project Darkstar and Multiverse Network. The latter intended to be something like Hero Engine but they bit off more than they could chew and folded. (I think The Repopulation intended to use it before Hero Engine? I vaguely recall that game being talked about) One of the laws of the universe seems to be that programmers will dramatically underestimate the time required to complete projects. Anyway using Multiverse is where I realized that the primary obstacle to making a game is the assets and world building. If a generic high fantasy asset library is not provided then I can't do anything with the middleware. This is why I can't quit the emu scene, because a large world is already pre-built for me so I can contribute there and we've had a lot of success with it. Artists/modelers are underappreciated.

Also I don't mean to knock them when I say they won't work for free like coders. If the coder is the guy deciding all the fun stuff like what the mechanics will be, (generally the case from what I see) and the artist just gets to draw it, then justifiably it's not going to be as appealing to him. Also the larger the team the less influence you have.

Neranja said:
Pantheon solely exists because Brad McQuaid was an established name in the MMO genre, and M&M only exists in this form because Shawn is ex-SOE, has Twitch+Youtube channels and interviewed SOE folk about the history of EverQuest. If he wasn't already known, then this thread may not even exist.

The other problem is the locust swarm mentality of the playerbase. Basically, you need to be able to grow and shrink at the drop of a hat. Many attempts in this regard were made, but it boils down to sharding, layering, instancing. UO invented shading as a stop-gap solution and wanted to do away with it long-term, but never solved the problem.
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I would agree that Shawn's association with EQ and the game's association with EQ will help it a lot. Because I'm older now, the biggest factor in whether I even play any game is if my buddies are playing or will play it. Almost all of my friends that I interact with frequently that I have now I met through EverQuest. (and none in WoW, go figure) So it's very easy for me to get them to play M&M. Gorgon? harder sell. EQ players don't have to go in blind and will have a good idea what to expect and don't need to be sold on it.

I could write a long screed about what I call 'early game rot' but I think the crux is that the early game is far too transitory and players feel no need to stay at a level awhile instead of just blowing past it, and perhaps leveling to 50 in a week should not be allowed in the first place. Imagine if there were raids at level 20 which were inaccessible to higher level players and there were multiple level caps such that players chose to stay level 20 awhile to get special gear that they could then improve at higher tiers such that it would not become obsoleted. (a custom emu idea I was pondering)
 
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Kithani

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Torrid said:
Imagine if there were raids at level 20 which were inaccessible to higher level players and there were multiple level caps such that players chose to stay level 20 awhile to get special gear that they could then improve at higher tiers such that it would not become obsoleted. (a custom emu idea I was pondering)
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Well, I can actually tell you exactly what happens.

You basically end up with people bottlenecked waiting on whatever rare drop they need from that level 20 mob because they can’t log in to progress their character unless that mob happens to be up. Eventually you end up having to nerf that gear to make it feel less “required” so that people don’t feel that they missed out by not level locking to camp single rare drops every few levels before advancing.

Shards of Dalaya

Shards of Dalaya is a free 3D fantasy-themed MMORPG developed and maintained by a passionate volunteer team.
shardsofdalaya.com
 
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etchazz

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Rezz said:
I think a lot could be sussed out if people post their classes that they played in EQ. A lot of the dynamic of EQ is what class you played in the chatroom; there were only a couple of classes (especially during launch > SOV) that actually "played" the game.

Nirgon Nirgon E etchazz What classes did you play during live EQ between release and SOV? Since those are the "hardcore" expansions. I played a raiding SK that pulled alongside monks for raids, as well as both pulled/tanked for almost every group ever. I actually played the game.

What did you kids play? I'm going to shit on your parade preemptively - If you played any DPS class that waited for mobs to get to the group? You were playing a chat client with graphics. If you were playing a healer that waited for mobs to get to the group? You were playing a chat client. If you were a tank who was waiting on mobs to get to the group? You were playing a chat client. If you were playing an enchanter? Eh, depending on situation, you were either playing a game or playing a chat client.

I think the vast majority of people who played during "hardcore days" in the MMO sphere were playing a chat client and pretending they were contributing. And I think our posters in this thread follow that methodology.

Plz, educate me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...

I played a wizard as my main for most of my raiding, but I also had a necro, bard, and warrior.
 
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Torrid

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Kithani said:
You basically end up with people bottlenecked waiting on whatever rare drop they need from that level 20 mob because they can’t log in to progress their character unless that mob happens to be up. Eventually you end up having to nerf that gear to make it feel less “required” so that people don’t feel that they missed out by not level locking to camp single rare drops every few levels before advancing.
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Never played Dalaya, but it's not the first time somebody has mentioned that an idea I had (I realize it's not all that original but I couldn't point to a game that does it) was similar to what that server did. I'll have to read their wiki.

The idea in more detail would be that the absolute end-game BIS items would be obtained from upgrading lower tier raid items but that the end result would be only slightly better than gear normally obtained from higher tiers. I realize that making it super BIS would be problematic. I would expect that many players would level a main up quickly as normal but have an alt that you were building up on the side as a long-term project that might eventually replace your main. Upgrading the items would require grinding experience and powerleveling would be severely curbed so people would group with newbies. Maybe I haven't put enough thought into it yet. Anyway my overall point was that there needs to be reasons to keep the lower level game interesting and active otherwise it becomes a ghost town and newbies quit in frustration for lack of people to play with. Also many lower level zones are utterly wasted and unvisited. Games usually 'solve' this by speeding up leveling in the early game plus making it soloable (since nobody is there anymore) and I don't like that solution as it essentially erases part of the game.
 
Sylas

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So a handful of classes will be able to solo but most will be required to group? So basically eq, where people who had to group from level 5 onwards understand social norms and politeness, group mechanics, etc where people who play necromancers group for the first time at 50 in a vox raid and cast fear any time a mob gets near them and ends up training the raid?

Gonna be fun.

Oh and if you want a solution to content monopolization that isnt instancing you guys are dancing around the answer without quite hitting it.

Get rid of levels.

Character progression ultimately ends up being gear based(solo->group content->raids) or skill based (AAPs, skill levels, etc) in every fucking game anyway. Eq eventually its just aap, elder scrolls its champion points, etc. Games like eve don't even have levels, just skills and wealth and guilds to determine power.

Black desert and maybe a few other asian mmos are the only games i can think of that let you level forever (with a damn near hard cap where xp drops to a trickle and leveling time becomes exponentially longer), and even it is entirelygear based progression anyway. So why bother artificially dividing your players among the limited amount of content you have?

Levels are fucking stupid and meaningless dividers when your concern is creating enough content for your player base. You can only create a finite amount of content per year, generally games take 3-5 years to create all of their level 1-50 content for x number of racial/faction paths to 50. Every time a character levels up they are simply obsoleting content they can no longer benefit from, and that development time is wasted.

So, you either artificially make leveling take forever (early eq) so that the content is enjoyed longer or you speed up leveling, treat it like a tutorial, and focus more of your development time on things to do at level cap and end up with fucking dailies.

Not to mention every time you add an expansion which raises the level cap you obsolete all content that came before it. There is a reason velious is the best eq expansion and its because it was entirely gear based progression over kunark.

Get rid of levels, let all progression be from skills and gear. You start a character, your just a wood elf ranger wearing rags and you got basic autoattack or whatever. Theres some goblins and some moss snakes. All you can kill is moss snakes so you do that and you gain exp which unlocks new attacks/spells. You are stronger but you are still wearing the same rags that you started with cus moss snakes dont wear armor. But now with your new skills you can tackle goblins which do drop rusty mail from time to time. This makes your character strong enough to survive the area past the newbie grounds and you set off for adventure.

Ensure your scaling from newb to godslayer isnt too extreme (maybe twice/three times as strong, not 50x as strong), keep it tight so that small, incremental upgrades are "huge" for players. As you gain skills sure it takes more exp for that next skill, but you always gain exp from moss snakes, they are never obsolete. That way new players can catchup skill wise. I'm saying skills but im thinking more like eves system where you have different categories with ranks 1-5. Rank 1-4 takes very little time while rank 5 takes a lot, so new players can quickly get 95% of the efficiency of a vet with years of play time under his belt. But the actual system doesnt matter, aap, talent trees, whatever floats your boat.

Now you can go back and add itemization to under utilized areas for any content in your game and it is valuable to all players. You can have the unique handcrafted itemization and sprinkle it in anywhere. No need for artificial "lvl 20 raid" cockblocks that prevents progression til you do it, but you gain all the advantages of that kind of thing.

So you can have your fiery avenger that drops from a specific named mob, who lives in a specific zone. Of course that named mob is known to travel to a few different dungeons so its not a specific spawn point cockblock that you end up camping, he has several spawn points in different dungeons with different place holders.

And that fiery avenger can be the equivalent of a level 30 drop, and it can be a prereq for another, more powerful fiery defender, equivalent to lvl 50. And you can later add further iterations. As long as power level doesnt creep up exponentially (you are only 2-3 as strong than you were when you started), moss snakes, may be a little easier to defeat but they always have a chance to kill you
 
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Hateyou

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I think it would be interesting to play a game that got rid of levels just to see how people react to it. A lot of gear would have to be no trade to prevent people becoming gods from buying gear with real money the day they create a character. Would be cool to see people farming their way to the top.
 
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Neranja

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Sorry, I'll have to split quote like an idiot, and as I have limited time I may have to split my answers to this over a few days. I may not even be able to read the forums on the coming weekend.

Torrid said:
Sure, the old roleplay MUDs would be an example of the higher creativity levels back in the old days because creating worlds is much easier when they're text based. [...] If they were easy to make then surely somebody would have made one by now?
Click to expand...
I think you are basing this on a few wrong assumptions. There's a Venn diagram of what games are made, especially in the indie scene. The sets represent these points basically:
  • What can I (successfully) make
  • What am I interested in myself
  • How big is the potential target audience for it
The last point is required if you want to make a living out of it.

Basically, for any type of MMO games the required combined skillset is much higher than any other game. My only claim here is that it is much easier to make one nowadays than it has ever been. Because frankly, engines, tools and servers are littering the landscape. The coherent "Vision" for a game, and the effort required to pull a team together is the biggest hurdle.

Cold, hard fact: There aren't as many players that want to play something EQ like it's 1999 again, as there are players that want to play WoW like it's 2004 again. This reduces the size of groups 2 and 3 in the Venn diagram.

Interestingly, there were enough TBC (and beyond) WoW Arena players, that they even made their own Arena-like games "without all that RPG leveling bullshit". I think one of them is called Arena of Kings on Steam.

Torrid said:
Although not Albion which looks more like a mobile ARPG than MMORPRG.
Click to expand...
Albion looks that way because it's very much in the vein of Ultima Online, at some points painfully so. Basically, that team did for UO what you want for EQ.

Torrid said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but Hero Engine does not provide a full generic high fantasy asset library allowing for games to immediately have humans, elves, orcs, dragons, weapons & armor etc. Also if I were a developer I'd be concerned about becoming so reliant on that company instead of using open source and public domain options. (or a larger company like Unity) The FAQ states clearly that if your subscription lapses they will delete your world after some time and god knows what happens if they fold.
Click to expand...
I think I made some wrong assumptions about what you want. From what I can gather is that you want a complete, but easily malleable game, start to finish, that you can set up a server for and hammer down to your liking, and not the bare bones of a game to develop the vision of your game from?

That will probably never happen, because frankly not enough artists would be willing to give up the copyrights to their work for someone else entirely to profit from it. The bigger the complete set of assets and more coherent it is, the more valuable it is. It's one thing to find people willing to work on a game, it's a different thing to expect people to tolerate their work to be used around the world for free.

The only way this could work, is if you lock everything down with appropriate licenses, like GPL3 for the code and CC BY-NC-SA for the assets. And even then it would be hard to find enough artists to create a complete game from start to finish. You'd have to pay them or something.

Also, it sounds a bit like that one guy on this forum whose name I forgot, that wanted to start his own game server and play GM/god, and punish people who "play his game wrong". He also wanted a solo EQ because he couldn't make friends.

I am very apprehensive about these kind of people, who I refer to "wannabe Reddit mod", because it smells like "I want to play god and be on a power trip 24/7" and not "I want to create something with my ideas and to my tastes."
 
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Sylas

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Hateyou said:
I think it would be interesting to play a game that got rid of levels just to see how people react to it. A lot of gear would have to be no trade to prevent people becoming gods from buying gear with real money the day they create a character. Would be cool to see people farming their way to the top.
Click to expand...
On the contrary, nothing is ever character/account bound, no trade, no drop, whatever you want to call it. You can lock equipment behind skills prereqs (must have expert 2 handed level 5 in order to equip) which is a skill on a skill tree locked behind 30-50 or however many hours of exp grinding as you wish, but fuck no trade. If we're making a spiritual successor to eq I want that random chinese guy in the ec tunnel selling fungi tunic and hero bracer who doesnt respond to your tells unless you are offering something ridiculous in trade.

Id point to eve as an example of a game without levels and where every item is tradeable (and 99.99% of items are player crafted) but thats a pvp game with destruction/loss on death so its apples and oranges.

In a pve game you want unique powerful items to be rare enough drops from rare spawns so that they have value/recognition value initially, but after enough time has passed and your several expansions down the road your server has naturally acquired enough of them that they are abundant and cheap to throw on your alts or friends who started late. Especially since we are designing this game so that content is never obsoleted, that fiery obliterator from expansion #2 requires that fiery destroyer from expansion #1 which requires the fiery defender which was your initial "end game" item that requires the fiery avenger that you got from the frog king in the equivalent to lvl 30 dungeon.

Keep in mind you can have certain skills/spells locked behind content as well. Quests or rare drops. Kinda like how eq wanted to have higher level spells learned, by collecting pages. Same concept but that was a shitty implementation. Maybe the skill or spell required to equip that v3 epic weapon is locked behind some quest or dungeon boss or even raid boss if you wanna go that route.
 
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etchazz

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Sylas said:
So a handful of classes will be able to solo but most will be required to group? So basically eq, where people who had to group from level 5 onwards understand social norms and politeness, group mechanics, etc where people who play necromancers group for the first time at 50 in a vox raid and cast fear any time a mob gets near them and ends up training the raid?

Gonna be fun.

Oh and if you want a solution to content monopolization that isnt instancing you guys are dancing around the answer without quite hitting it.

Get rid of levels.

Character progression ultimately ends up being gear based(solo->group content->raids) or skill based (AAPs, skill levels, etc) in every fucking game anyway. Eq eventually its just aap, elder scrolls its champion points, etc. Games like eve don't even have levels, just skills and wealth and guilds to determine power.

Black desert and maybe a few other asian mmos are the only games i can think of that let you level forever (with a damn near hard cap where xp drops to a trickle and leveling time becomes exponentially longer), and even it is entirelygear based progression anyway. So why bother artificially dividing your players among the limited amount of content you have?

Levels are fucking stupid and meaningless dividers when your concern is creating enough content for your player base. You can only create a finite amount of content per year, generally games take 3-5 years to create all of their level 1-50 content for x number of racial/faction paths to 50. Every time a character levels up they are simply obsoleting content they can no longer benefit from, and that development time is wasted.

So, you either artificially make leveling take forever (early eq) so that the content is enjoyed longer or you speed up leveling, treat it like a tutorial, and focus more of your development time on things to do at level cap and end up with fucking dailies.

Not to mention every time you add an expansion which raises the level cap you obsolete all content that came before it. There is a reason velious is the best eq expansion and its because it was entirely gear based progression over kunark.

Get rid of levels, let all progression be from skills and gear. You start a character, your just a wood elf ranger wearing rags and you got basic autoattack or whatever. Theres some goblins and some moss snakes. All you can kill is moss snakes so you do that and you gain exp which unlocks new attacks/spells. You are stronger but you are still wearing the same rags that you started with cus moss snakes dont wear armor. But now with your new skills you can tackle goblins which do drop rusty mail from time to time. This makes your character strong enough to survive the area past the newbie grounds and you set off for adventure.

Ensure your scaling from newb to godslayer isnt too extreme (maybe twice/three times as strong, not 50x as strong), keep it tight so that small, incremental upgrades are "huge" for players. As you gain skills sure it takes more exp for that next skill, but you always gain exp from moss snakes, they are never obsolete. That way new players can catchup skill wise. I'm saying skills but im thinking more like eves system where you have different categories with ranks 1-5. Rank 1-4 takes very little time while rank 5 takes a lot, so new players can quickly get 95% of the efficiency of a vet with years of play time under his belt. But the actual system doesnt matter, aap, talent trees, whatever floats your boat.

Now you can go back and add itemization to under utilized areas for any content in your game and it is valuable to all players. You can have the unique handcrafted itemization and sprinkle it in anywhere. No need for artificial "lvl 20 raid" cockblocks that prevents progression til you do it, but you gain all the advantages of that kind of thing.

So you can have your fiery avenger that drops from a specific named mob, who lives in a specific zone. Of course that named mob is known to travel to a few different dungeons so its not a specific spawn point cockblock that you end up camping, he has several spawn points in different dungeons with different place holders.

And that fiery avenger can be the equivalent of a level 30 drop, and it can be a prereq for another, more powerful fiery defender, equivalent to lvl 50. And you can later add further iterations. As long as power level doesnt creep up exponentially (you are only 2-3 as strong than you were when you started), moss snakes, may be a little easier to defeat but they always have a chance to kill you
Click to expand...

You made my point for me in just a few words in your otherwise inane and verbose diatribe: make leveling take longer.
 
Hateyou

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Sylas said:
On the contrary, nothing is ever character/account bound, no trade, no drop, whatever you want to call it. You can lock equipment behind skills prereqs (must have expert 2 handed level 5 in order to equip) which is a skill on a skill tree locked behind 30-50 or however many hours of exp grinding as you wish, but fuck no trade. If we're making a spiritual successor to eq I want that random chinese guy in the ec tunnel selling fungi tunic and hero bracer who doesnt respond to your tells unless you are offering something ridiculous in trade.

Id point to eve as an example of a game without levels and where every item is tradeable (and 99.99% of items are player crafted) but thats a pvp game with destruction/loss on death so its apples and oranges.

In a pve game you want unique powerful items to be rare enough drops from rare spawns so that they have value/recognition value initially, but after enough time has passed and your several expansions down the road your server has naturally acquired enough of them that they are abundant and cheap to throw on your alts or friends who started late. Especially since we are designing this game so that content is never obsoleted, that fiery obliterator from expansion #2 requires that fiery destroyer from expansion #1 which requires the fiery defender which was your initial "end game" item that requires the fiery avenger that you got from the frog king in the equivalent to lvl 30 dungeon.

Keep in mind you can have certain skills/spells locked behind content as well. Quests or rare drops. Kinda like how eq wanted to have higher level spells learned, by collecting pages. Same concept but that was a shitty implementation. Maybe the skill or spell required to equip that v3 epic weapon is locked behind some quest or dungeon boss or even raid boss if you wanna go that route.
Click to expand...
Yeah skill based would work. That’s still a kind of leveling though. I thought you meant gutting it completely.

Not sure how well that would work. That’s how Final Fantasy 2 was and it fucking sucked. Going out and nuking/hitting your own party members trying to level up your casting/fighting skills cause it was faster than trying to find mobs to beat on.
 
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vegetoeeVegetoee

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I think skills over level is fine. You could pull it off. Perhaps skills have different tiers and revolve around use on mobs or players (PVP no duels). You could add levels to gear too, certain items level up with you under certain conditions, and even have sub-class specialization based on AA type skills etc etc. All of those give players the ability to progress and DO STUFF in game without cawkblocks. I hate leveling but love EQ style games for their playability and socialization. However, a better version of that type of MMO where one does not have to grind hitting stuff but can go out in the world would be HUGE.
 
Sylas

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Yeah when i say "skills" i don't mean eq or wow type skills that improve via use, like 1 handed goes up by using sword, etc. When I say skills its a generic name for AAPs, CP, SP, talents, whatever each game calls it, they are all the same thing. Kill monsters, earn xp, gain a point (eve is different, its wait x amount of time, gain point). You spend that point in whatever talent tree, accelerated advancement tree, champion tree, whatever you wanna call it. Some skills unlock a new attack/spell, some make existing attacks/spells better, some change the way abilities work, some enable you to equip certain items, etc.

Its "progression" for your character after you hit max level, in addition to gear. Except every game that uses a system like this realizes eventually that levels are stupid and they stop raising the level cap and just come out with new/different aaps each expansion.

All im saying is skip that learning process and obsoleting all your development time from the get go by just not having levels.
 
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Flobee

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Sylas said:
All im saying is skip that learning process and obsoleting all your development time from the get go by just not having levels.
Click to expand...
I think I could get behind this with an AA system like EQ. I can't do horizontal progression (ala GW2) I find it super boring, but rather just starting the AA grind as a newbie and having that progression replace leveling. Flatten the overall gameworld in that way seems like it could work. I do tend to feel like if there isn't a big enough difference between a veteran and newb you're likely not going to have enough carrot to keep people (me) playing.

It could also completely suck though, would have to experience it I guess
 
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