Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Hekotat

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Paying a sub for a finished product is a far different thing than paying one to beta test something that will never be finished. Oh well, if the masochistic misery whales want to be milked, someone will milk them.

While I agree with you, this is the first time in more than a decade I've been willing to pay for a subscription on an EA title (Or at all really). These guys aren't out to swindle you and you can tell from their streams. This is a passion project that I am personally inspired by, and I have not been inspired by anything in this cruel shitty world in so long that it really struck a nerve when it happened. We've all been swindled by what gaming has become but this one feels different, it feels honest and I'm willing to help them bring joy back to my world. I need hope brother, I can't keep going on like this.
 
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Quaid

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Thats the point I'm making. You have a preference and at least seemingly can't imagine anyone having a different one. I'll use maps too most likely, but designing without them very much has a purpose. In recent history design has largely been about controlling player behavior. This kind of decision is specifically a return to a different philosophy of designing for a specific experience and not making top priority that everyone experience it in the same way. You may dislike it which is fine, but its not retarded its just a different philosophy than you've seen in recent years.

Maybe players will hate it, I tend to think its going to work just fine. Will just have to see.

This is not about a 'preference' or if i 'like it' or 'don't like it'. I could not care less about such lame ass concepts.

These choices are encouraging 95% of the player base to run a second screen for more tools than is necessary. How does that make the 'vibes' better on the whole? How does it increase 'immersion' for the majority? How does this make the game world feel better, if it encourages players to detach from that game world more frequently?
 

Quaid

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While I agree with you, this is the first time in more than a decade I've been willing to pay for a subscription on an EA title (Or at all really). These guys aren't out to swindle you and you can tell from their streams. This is a passion project that I am personally inspired by, and I have not been inspired by anything in this cruel shitty world in so long that it really struck a nerve when it happened. We've all been swindled by what gaming has become but this one feels different, it feels honest and I'm willing to help them bring joy back to my world. I need hope brother, I can't keep going on like this.

Anyone criticizing the $15 sub fee for this game, even in its current state, is a broke-ass hater.

Change my mind.
 
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moonarchia

The Scientific Shitlord
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While I agree with you, this is the first time in more than a decade I've been willing to pay for a subscription on an EA title (Or at all really). These guys aren't out to swindle you and you can tell from their streams. This is a passion project that I am personally inspired by, and I have not been inspired by anything in this cruel shitty world in so long that it really struck a nerve when it happened. We've all been swindled by what gaming has become but this one feels different, it feels honest and I'm willing to help them bring joy back to my world. I need hope brother, I can't keep going on like this.
I fell for that shit last year with Pantheon. It happens. If the devs had any inclination to stop being assholes and implement actual QOL instead of continual kicking of the players in the dick I might give it a shot too. Forcing soft PVP by refusing to make instances is a hard pass.
 

Flobee

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This is not about a 'preference' or if i 'like it' or 'don't like it'. I could not care less about such lame ass concepts.

These choices are encouraging 95% of the player base to run a second screen for more tools than is necessary. How does that make the 'vibes' better on the whole? How does it increase 'immersion' for the majority? How does this make the game world feel better, if it encourages players to detach from that game world more frequently?
Because when you're designing something you're trying to create a specific experience. When doing this you're taking into account the tools the player has available when interacting with that experience. Thus the tools available matter dramatically to the end result. I don't know how to explain it more clearly than that. Its a thought process you're going to engage in when designing any sort of experience for another person, regardless of format.

How a player chooses to engage with that content is irrelevant because the factors involved during the design determine the outcome, not player choice. A simple example is zone layout. If I'm designing for a map or minimap then I need to consider how its going to be mapped for the player and that will constrain my design. Because I have to CARE about the map because its a feature in the game. Expand that concept to other areas and you'll start seeing what I'm trying to say.
 

Quaid

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Because when you're designing something you're trying to create a specific experience. When doing this you're taking into account the tools the player has available when interacting with that experience. Thus the tools available matter dramatically to the end result. I don't know how to explain it more clearly than that. Its a thought process you're going to engage in when designing any sort of experience for another person, regardless of format.

How a player chooses to engage with that content is irrelevant because the factors involved during the design determine the outcome, not player choice. A simple example is zone layout. If I'm designing for a map or minimap then I need to consider how its going to be mapped for the player and that will constrain my design. Because I have to CARE about the map because its a feature in the game. Expand that concept to other areas and you'll start seeing what I'm trying to say.

They are going to engage with certain systems (global chat, auction house, maps, item databases) whether you include them or not. This is what I'm saying. Why on Earth would a rational person relinquish creative control of those tools and encourage their players to engage with DraftKings or Ozempic ads while playing their game? The goal should be encouraging players to utilize the (limited?) tools you choose to give them rather than have them literally exit your game world.
 
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Flobee

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They are going to engage with certain systems (global chat, auction house, maps, item databases) whether you include them or not. This is what I'm saying. Why on Earth would a rational person relinquish creative control of those tools and encourage their players to engage with DraftKings or Pfizer ads while playing their game? The goal should be encouraging players to utilize the (limited?) tools you choose to give them rather than have them literally exit your game world.
Control is the key to what you're saying.

The entire point is not trying to control the player and what they're doing. A game designers job is to... design the game, not control player attention. If a player decides to alter the experience then that is their choice. I know this is wildly different than the experience of 99% of modern games... but that's exactly the point. If the game is well designed within the constraints set by the game itself its going to be enjoyable, or that's the idea anyhow. Whether or not the player is guzzling energy drinks and spam refreshing a third party auction house is irrelevant to that.

We're so used to media telling us how and what to think the idea of something being designed specifically to avoid that is 'irrational'. Lol. Granted I'm putting this intention on the devs I don't think I've heard this explicitly stated its just my interpretation from decisions and something that I've thought about a lot for personal projects.
 
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Hekotat

FoH nuclear response team
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I fell for that shit last year with Pantheon. It happens. If the devs had any inclination to stop being assholes and implement actual QOL instead of continual kicking of the players in the dick I might give it a shot too. Forcing soft PVP by refusing to make instances is a hard pass.

I get you man, both Kickstarters I backed bombed hard as well as watching every IP I love turn to ash in my mouth. However, it's 15 dollars a month, that is an insane amount of value for what this is and you don't have to keep it going if you don't want to. That's just barely more than a pound of Hamburger meat for almost endless entertainment for awhile, good entertainment to boot. The music in this game is so soothing and the world feels so immersive it just melts the stress away. If that's not worth 15 dollars I don't know what is.


EDIT: Math is hard.
 
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moonarchia

The Scientific Shitlord
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I get you man, both Kickstarters I backed bombed hard as well as watching every IP I love turn to ash in my mouth. However, it's 15 dollars a month, that is an insane amount of value for what this is and you don't have to keep it going if you don't want to. That's just barely more than a pound of Hamburger meat for almost endless entertainment for awhile, good entertainment to boot. The music in this game is so soothing and the world feels so immersive it just melts the stress away. If that's not worth 15 dollars I don't know what is.


EDIT: Math is hard.
It's not about money. It's about not supporting shitty devs. Like I said, lack of instancing is a hard pass. That was a lesson I was reminded of with Pantheon. People declaring camps and hoarding spawns is something I will not tolerate or be a part of.
 

Quaid

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Control is the key to what you're saying.

The entire point is not trying to control the player and what they're doing. A game designers job is to... design the game, not control player attention. If a player decides to alter the experience then that is their choice. I know this is wildly different than the experience of 99% of modern games... but that's exactly the point. If the game is well designed within the constraints set by the game itself its going to be enjoyable, or that's the idea anyhow. Whether or not the player is guzzling energy drinks and spam refreshing a third party auction house is irrelevant to that.

We're so used to media telling us how and what to think the idea of something being designed specifically to avoid that is 'irrational'. Lol. Granted I'm putting this intention on the devs I don't think I've heard this explicitly stated its just my interpretation from decisions and something that I've thought about a lot for personal projects.

So your position is that the developers are intentionally making decisions that encourage players to frequently disengage from their game world, while building a game experience that focuses on immersion, risk calculation, strategy, planning, and knowledge?
 

Flobee

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So your position is that the developers are intentionally making decisions that encourage players to frequently disengage from their game world, while building a game experience that focuses on immersion, risk calculation, strategy, planning, and knowledge?
No. I don't think I can make my point any clearer. You either understand it or you don't.
 
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Kirun

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The core concern being raised there isn't "I personally want convenience," it's that in reality players will use maps, databases, auction tools, and global channels whether they're in-game or not. Given that reality, it's fair to question why a developer would deliberately give up control over those systems and push the majority of players into alt-tabbing or second-screening, especially when the stated goals are immersion, cohesion, and world-building. That isn't about preference, it's about outcomes.

Where I push back is the idea that "players choosing to use third-party tools" somehow meaningfully preserves the intended experience. Once 90-95% of the playerbase is doing it anyway, the distinction between "designed" and "not designed" becomes academic. At that point, the experience is shaped by those tools, just without any artistic control, UX consistency, or safeguards. Saying "the most efficient path isn't the only path" doesn't really address the fact that most players will take the efficient path regardless, and design doesn't exist in a vacuum where player behavior can be hand-waved away.

I also don't fully buy the argument that this is about avoiding "controlling player behavior." Every design decision controls behavior implicitly. Choosing not to include a map, auction house, or global chat doesn't stop players from using them, it just externalizes that behavior. You're still shaping outcomes, just indirectly, and often in ways that undermine the very experience you're claiming to protect. If immersion matters, letting it be mediated by ad-riddled third-party sites is a strange hill to die on.

If you know players will map your zones anyway, then ignoring that reality doesn't preserve some pure experience, it just means the mapping happens outside your ecosystem. The player experience is still constrained but now you've just forfeited your role in shaping it.

Ultimately, I think the disagreement comes down to this: one side is talking about intent, the other is talking about results. You can absolutely design around a philosophy of minimal tools, but once the real-world behavior is predictable and consistent, pretending it doesn't exist doesn’t make the experience more authentic, it just makes it less coherent. That's not an attack on the devs' vision, it's a critique of whether the implementation actually achieves what that vision claims to value.
 
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Pasteton

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Maps aren’t gonna do much for you I bet. With the verticality of some zones good luck trying to make a comprehensible fallen pass map, would probably be faster just learning it via exploration. Someone actually made a telekir map and it looks like an mc Escher painting.

not sure what the point of an auction house is right now as the economy is nonexistent currently
 
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Gravel

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Maybe the economy is non-existent because there's nothing in game to facilitate it? People aren't going to sit in one spot in a zone spamming an auction channel for hours.
 
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Pasteton

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It’s non existent because there’s like 50-100 people on at any given time and most are doing their own thing in guilds. There’s not enough of a player base for much of an economy and most people just give away shit for free in town as there’s no point to money currently. I’m drifting into stuff I probably shouldn’t talk about but devs are definitely aware of the issue
 

Valorath

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In the last open play test the auction and ooc channels in Night Harbor were both pretty active with people buying and selling things. Shawn has talked in his stream about the rooms and stalls for rent in the cities and how they could be used to hawk your wares. They've not gotten specific (that I've seen) about how they intend to implement bazaar or auction house style commerce, but I think it's safe to say they've got something in mind other than "hah let them use The Tunnel website for the AH!"
 
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Sloan

Golden Knight of the Realm
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Not enough people competing for camps for a functioning economy, theres only 100 people on closed alpha at any point in time and they are camping whatever they want because its open to camp. Economy comes into play when things become scarce.
 

Quaid

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In the last open play test the auction and ooc channels in Night Harbor were both pretty active with people buying and selling things. Shawn has talked in his stream about the rooms and stalls for rent in the cities and how they could be used to hawk your wares. They've not gotten specific (that I've seen) about how they intend to implement bazaar or auction house style commerce, but I think it's safe to say they've got something in mind other than "hah let them use The Tunnel website for the AH!"

If it’s Auction Stalls without a robust in-game search function, people will absolutely circumvent that system with a third party app.
 
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