Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Gravel said:

Sounds like you're going to get an even crappier version of PoE.

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Even GGG eventually had to accept the reality of modern gaming and add asynchronous trade, and they fought it every step of the way. The PoE devs were famously hostile to QoL, external tools, and information transparency early on, but the playerbase dragged them into the modern era because the alternative was pretending third-party tools didn't exist while everyone used them anyway. Loot filters, trade APIs, official ladders, atlas tools - none of that happened because GGG suddenly loved convenience. It happened because they realized players were already doing it, and surrendering UX control to random websites and scripts was worse than embracing it.

That's the core issue here. Players will optimize, second-screen, datamine, and externalize systems whether you like it or not. The only real choice devs have is whether they want to own that experience or outsource it to ad-ridden sites and Discord bots. Pretending that withholding tools somehow preserves purity or immersion hasn't worked in 20 years, and PoE is a great case study of that evolution.

Mortal has been an over the top punishing game for years and even they caved to the in game map eventually. The key distinction is having a position indicator which they still purposely do not have.

In the case of M&M I think they should have an in game map but just like MO, not give you the flashing dot of where you are.

Chersk said:

Mortal has been an over the top punishing game for years and even they caved to the in game map eventually. The key distinction is having a position indicator which they still purposely do not have.

In the case of M&M I think they should have an in game map but just like MO, not give you the flashing dot of where you are.

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Kirun said:

Even GGG eventually had to accept the reality of modern gaming and add asynchronous trade, and they fought it every step of the way. The PoE devs were famously hostile to QoL, external tools, and information transparency early on, but the playerbase dragged them into the modern era because the alternative was pretending third-party tools didn't exist while everyone used them anyway. Loot filters, trade APIs, official ladders, atlas tools - none of that happened because GGG suddenly loved convenience. It happened because they realized players were already doing it, and surrendering UX control to random websites and scripts was worse than embracing it.

That's the core issue here. Players will optimize, second-screen, datamine, and externalize systems whether you like it or not. The only real choice devs have is whether they want to own that experience or outsource it to ad-ridden sites and Discord bots. Pretending that withholding tools somehow preserves purity or immersion hasn't worked in 20 years, and PoE is a great case study of that evolution.

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GGG caved because Chris Wilson cashed out and left the company. Or china money demanded his ouster and changes or who knows. We'll never get the real story. Meanwhile poe2 is semi floundering and poe1.. well i guess is doing ok, but it seems like they're just throwing bones at them to appease the audience. I can't speak to it really. GGG was right to curtail the whims of their base as long as they did. If they hadn't they would have fast tracked into a similar clown-show that d3 and d4 turned into. Convenience! Bigger numbers! The absolute most boring arpgs.

GGG had the freedom while they were indy to dictate how their playerbase interacted with their game. You can argue all you want about whether that early friction they established did more harm than good over the years- but it established a baseline set of standards about how our game is going to operate. Ultimately, I think that served them pretty well. We'll have to see in the next couple years how it shakes out after the money trucks have done their damage. Now the returns on investment have to come in.

NWC is in a similar early GGG state. They have the ability to set the stage on how their games are interfaced with. They don't have investors on their nuts for line go up and to the right. They don't have to cater to anyone really. Other than people who are interested in what they're building.

But, by and large gamer audiences are stupid, entitled, and wrong. If they want to rob themselves of any sense of discovery and fast track the game into min-max meta nonsense boredom... well i feel sorry for them. They brain fucked themselves out of being able to feel anything organically, to enjoy a game without external stimuli reinforcing their own consensus decisions. You only need to look at modern mmos to see the consequences of catering to that crowd at all.

bolok said:

But, by and large gamer audiences are stupid, entitled, and wrong. If they want to rob themselves of any sense of discovery and fast track the game into min-max meta nonsense boredom... well i feel sorry for them. They brain fucked themselves out of being able to feel anything organically, to enjoy a game without external stimuli reinforcing their own consensus decisions. You only need to look at modern mmos to see the consequences of catering to that crowd at all.

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Every player I knew playing EQ a quarter century ago was using eqatlas and IRC. This conversation has nothing to do with ‘modern mmos’ or their players. They are no different than they were in the past. Human behaviour is human behaviour. If you don’t give players certain in game tools they will simply access them elsewhere, in a place where you have no control over their presentation or functionality.

You may be right that the game will be more enjoyable if players willfully ignore those tools, but that’s not how it’s gonna play out.

people think they'll be alt-tabbing to item db / maps / quests / spells etc..

lol no this is 2026* there will be overlays (undetectable)... there will be pixel bot macros (undetectable)... there will be dll injection to read memory (which will be tolerated)... and there will be dll injection to write memory (wont be tolerated but wont be possible to be stopped)...

the overlays are how all mmo's work now... there will just be overlays drawn on your screen showing you the most optimal walking paths etc...

wow did it right by allowing so much to be done in lua, it prevented masses from looking for outside solutions

I did still have my printed out binder of EQ maps all the way up until my last move. Good times

Sylas said:

Honestly its just like communism, system designed completely anathema to human behavior which is why it always fails at scale.

But with what this game is designing for, intentionally small niche audience it could actually work. It's possible all 50 players per server dont use maps or other 3rd party sites and just rp as illiterate ogres and cyber each other on their 4 hour boat rides.

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Cant wait to RP as an illiterate Ogre Fighter. Gonna name him Karsa Orlong, and you faggots will witness. Don't steal my name.