Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Pasteton said:

Really pins down how good the point of interest and world design is in this game that you can navigate pretty well without a map just because of how the zones are designed. Game like ffxiv or black desert looks much more attractive but the landscape is so banal and random generated feeling that it’s much easier to get lost in those games without a map

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People who needs maps in this are regarded. It’s really easy to understand and navigate.

Drapdis said:

People who needs maps in this are regarded. It’s really easy to understand and navigate.

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You don't need a spoon to eat soup.

Not having in-game maps/minimaps is a fantastic example of tedium for the sake of annoyance rather than difficulty. Completely fucking retarded. If this is the "design decisions" these devs are making, 6 months may be a GENEROUS prediction.

Pasteton said:

It’s definitely something enjoyable as a stand alone ‘group rpg’ or whatever you’re trying to pigeonhole it as. I’m looking forward to the ‘scaffolding’ of an mmorpg on release, like chasing for contested, stuff like that increases enjoyment for me, I don’t have to win to enjoy that aspect of a game, I played eq for years losing out on races sometimes , not everyone just whines and quits when they can’t access all content. I’m simply acknowledging that the player base and mmo genre has changed enough that this mindset may not be prevalent enough to keep a game in existence for longer than a year or two. Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have it at all, i for one am looking forward to the time when shits being discovered and figured out and beaten for the first time etc. I’m not under the illusion that element will last forever and I don’t need it to. The mmo aspect doesn’t count as 1) a failure or 2) something they should never have done, if it ends up winding down like this. Anyone who thinks they’ll be playing *any* game for 5-10 years these days is delusional. But there will be some nostalgia autists that will do that too.

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The funny part is I bet the people who are in the "I want to wait for EA to play" camp are the same ones who will say they want to play this and be in the group figuring shit out, not realizing that the second that EA starts, the 100 people who've been consuming all the alpha content will destroy everything and lock out anyone who didn't play the tests.

They're basically going to force themselves into being locked out of content, not realizing they did it to themselves. It's going to be hilarious.

I think I've asked this before but wasn't sure... have they said much in regard to their end game? With their heavy EQ influence I wasn't sure what direction they would lean.... raid mob in the bottom of a exp dungeon (Sol B, Seb, etc.) or a raid zone (PoF, PoH, etc.) I actually hope they go the zone route. You could instance raid zones and leave everything else open world. Honestly, the way EQ did it wasn't bad. You still had shared camps that way and open world.

I honestly don't have a problem with some of the systems MMO's have in place but when you are able to exist completely separate from the community and exempt from the world, I don't think there's any reason to make it a MMO. Might as well be D3 or something. Honestly, I can log into WoW, queue up for a dungeon, a raid, and never leave the zone I camped in and experience the majority of the game. Outside of needing the AH every now and again or our guild bank, I very rarely need to interact with people.

So there's bound to be a happy medium where players have value and contribute to the overall community but you are not held hostage by it. MnM seems to have glimpses of a community. I received invites, buffs, heals, and just random other interactions by folks in the newbie zone but that will change as you progress deeper into the game.

Pasteton said:

It’s definitely something enjoyable as a stand alone ‘group rpg’ or whatever you’re trying to pigeonhole it as. I’m looking forward to the ‘scaffolding’ of an mmorpg on release, like chasing for contested, stuff like that increases enjoyment for me, I don’t have to win to enjoy that aspect of a game, I played eq for years losing out on races sometimes , not everyone just whines and quits when they can’t access all content. I’m simply acknowledging that the player base and mmo genre has changed enough that this mindset may not be prevalent enough to keep a game in existence for longer than a year or two. Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have it at all, i for one am looking forward to the time when shits being discovered and figured out and beaten for the first time etc. I’m not under the illusion that element will last forever and I don’t need it to. The mmo aspect doesn’t count as 1) a failure or 2) something they should never have done, if it ends up winding down like this. Anyone who thinks they’ll be playing *any* game for 5-10 years these days is delusional. But there will be some nostalgia autists that will do that too.

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Rather than spawn chasing or trying to learn how to defeat content for the first time, which are fine don't get me wrong, I think the thing that most MMOs severely miss out on is community.

Everquest's community was largely 14-30 year olds experiencing a new type of game for the first time together. New content. First time. Together. Internets. Nobody knew what anyone was thinking except through direct discovery through one player interacting with the story of another player through grouping and seeing one another player in the same dungeon and whatnot until they became friends. The community of EQ by today's standards was very tight knit. It had high trust. Remember when you could /consent someone and they could gank your gold, except they didn't? Their good name meant something. I remember my buddy telling me about Vox for the first time and the name of the guild who first killed her. I mean I was a total noob, had no real concept of raids in my head yet. Those days are long gone, but I think literally everything a game studio does is an attempt to reach that kind of story in their game, where one player is in awe at what another member/s of their community did.

WoW has a downright juvenile, i'll even say toxic community. It's practically baked into the story/lore of WoW with many pop-culture references and jokes and whatnot, even though previous Warcraft games I believe were quite 'serious' about their overall story, with jokes and whatnot built into clicking a peon a few times but overall the story was generally serious. You're at least as likely to get a snide-sarcastic-flippant-joke response in chat as you are an honest helpful reply that at least points you in the right direction. Low trust.

How do you develop a strong sense of community? Create something new that doesn't fit into a wowhead-style database, obviously. Make something that requires the whole community to defeat and figure out, where only an elite number of them do initially and it has an impact on the whole community somehow. It'll be unfair to players with little time to invest, but that's how every game ever has been. That's the kind of game that M&M needs to be but I seriously doubt they'll deliver based on what i've seen so far. I'll definitely play the EA though if I can.

And that kind of game just can't exist in 2026 because we live in the era of Wikis and Discord and instant communication and tests that last years where everything has already been figured out.

There will never be another EQ because it was a product of a specific period of time, not because of any of the systems in the game.

Gravel said:

And that kind of game just can't exist in 2026 because we live in the era of Wikis and Discord and instant communication and tests that last years where everything has already been figured out.

There will never be another EQ because it was a product of a specific period of time, not because of any of the systems in the game.

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It is very possible technically: data could be sent to the client as needed in a form that could not be easily mined and some mechanic (no instancing) to keep people from wanting to share guide videos, items, builds and strats.

But would the big market/normie players want anything to do with this game? Probably not

Quaid said:

So remember a while back I said if you don't provide players with reasonable in-game tools they will look to third party solutions, and then you lose all control of those tools?

Ya.

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I called that in New World (mini-map only). Called it in Pantheon, too. By the time I played MNM - I just didnt care anymore. Its like beating a dead horse. The lack of a major and mini-map, just like the lack of instancing and sharding - is an artificial increase in playtime. I understand that people dont want changes from the formula that they think worked so well. But a map, mini-map, instancing, sharding, graphical LFG tool, graphical questing log, etc. - All of that shit saves the player time, and what are they going to do with that time? Play the rest of the fucking game. You know, socialize and all that BS that everyone says these tools inhibit.

This game is exactly what it says it is. I like a couple of the guys that are making it and I do give them a pass on a lot of this shit. But to be specific, they get a pass on a lot of shit because the rest of the industry is so fucking awful right now that even with all this games negatives - I'd still rather play this. What I think a lot of people have a hard time with when defending decisions to not have tools like these is.. that they dont necessarily know what it was about the "formula" from EQ Classic - that they enjoyed so much. Everyones experience was the same, but different in that game. The answer might just very well be exactly what you guys are saying, and that it was just a product of its time (limited social platforms, no other MMO choices, etc.). But there is also a concern about rose colored glasses, and how are they still rose colored glasses if they enjoy playing the TLP's still to this day? Then, what is it about a TLP that ruins the experience now? Is it the Krono? (yes) The cash shop? The instancing? The sharding? The Bazaar? The map? etc. etc. ... Do I care? Not really. If I enjoy it, Ill play it. If I dont, I wont. Shits doesnt have to be rocket science.

Gravel said:

And that kind of game just can't exist in 2026 because we live in the era of Wikis and Discord and instant communication and tests that last years where everything has already been figured out.

There will never be another EQ because it was a product of a specific period of time, not because of any of the systems in the game.

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Here's one way that M&M could make great strides towards a strong community: No alts until you reach a certain fairly high level. Making players commit is the first step towards community.

Not saying it's a great idea......

Gravel said:

The funny part is I bet the people who are in the "I want to wait for EA to play" camp are the same ones who will say they want to play this and be in the group figuring shit out, not realizing that the second that EA starts, the 100 people who've been consuming all the alpha content will destroy everything and lock out anyone who didn't play the tests.

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People underestimate how fast "figuring it out together" disappears the moment Early Access flips on.

In theory, "release" (or early access release these days) is supposed to be this "communal discovery" phase. In reality? The first 100-200 hyper-engaged players who've been in every stress test, watched every stream, and lived in Discord are going to map the game out in about 72 hours. Camps will be optimized, most efficient routes will be solved, leveling paths documented, class metas established and boss timers tracked. By the time the "I'll wait for EA" crowd logs in thinking they're part of some grand communal mystery, they're already joining a solved ecosystem.

And that bleeds directly into group expectations. It's not just about contested content getting locked down early - it's the social dynamic everybody claims is so "important". If you're coming in blind thinking it's going to be chill vibes and organic exploration, there's a very real chance your groupmates have already done the dungeon eight times on test weekends. They expect you to know the pulls, the pathing quirks, the mechanics, the "don't stand here or you body pull three rooms" spots, etc.

If you're just a casual "teehee first time here guys! I'm just a cool dad gamer!" player, that gap in knowledge end up turning into friction. Not romantic, nostalgic friction. Real friction. The kind where people get impatient, start speed-pulling, or quietly kick you from the group for someone who "knows the route."

That's the paradox of modern MMOs trying to recreate 1999 discovery. Back then, almost everyone was ignorant at the same time. Today, information spreads instantly, and a small, highly invested minority sets the tempo for everyone else. So yeah, the "I'll wait for EA to experience it fresh" plan sounds nice. But in practice, you're not joining a mystery. You're joining a race that already started and the front runners are already halfway through the dungeon. And I'm sure many will say, "Well, I just won't play that way! I'm just a quirky dad! Not some hardcore WoW Zoomer!". The problem is… you probably won't get that luxury.

If the game is group-centric, your experience is shaped by the other people in your party. If 4 out of 5 want to optimize, move fast, and avoid "wasting time," you don't get to unilaterally RP your way through blind exploration without friction. You can try to find a like-minded group, sure. But in a niche MMO with a limited population, your pool of options shrinks fast. Especially at specific level ranges or off-peak hours. And even if you personally avoid guides and spreadsheets, the broader playerbase won't. That knowledge seeps into the culture. It becomes the baseline expectation. Not knowing mechanics stops being charming and starts being inefficient.

So yeah, "I just won't play that way" sounds empowering. But in a socially dependent MMO, you don't control the meta. The community does. And many of you guys have CLEARLY never played TLPs if you think this game is going to be nothing but cool, chill dads just taking a stroll through MMO-land. You have no idea the level of degeneracy that exists out there and how efficient most "modern" gamers are in boomer games like these nowadays.

Break said:

Rather than spawn chasing or trying to learn how to defeat content for the first time, which are fine don't get me wrong, I think the thing that most MMOs severely miss out on is community.

Everquest's community was largely 14-30 year olds experiencing a new type of game for the first time together. New content. First time. Together. Internets. Nobody knew what anyone was thinking except through direct discovery through one player interacting with the story of another player through grouping and seeing one another player in the same dungeon and whatnot until they became friends. The community of EQ by today's standards was very tight knit. It had high trust. Remember when you could /consent someone and they could gank your gold, except they didn't? Their good name meant something. I remember my buddy telling me about Vox for the first time and the name of the guild who first killed her. I mean I was a total noob, had no real concept of raids in my head yet. Those days are long gone, but I think literally everything a game studio does is an attempt to reach that kind of story in their game, where one player is in awe at what another member/s of their community did.

WoW has a downright juvenile, i'll even say toxic community. It's practically baked into the story/lore of WoW with many pop-culture references and jokes and whatnot, even though previous Warcraft games I believe were quite 'serious' about their overall story, with jokes and whatnot built into clicking a peon a few times but overall the story was generally serious. You're at least as likely to get a snide-sarcastic-flippant-joke response in chat as you are an honest helpful reply that at least points you in the right direction. Low trust.

How do you develop a strong sense of community? Create something new that doesn't fit into a wowhead-style database, obviously. Make something that requires the whole community to defeat and figure out, where only an elite number of them do initially and it has an impact on the whole community somehow. It'll be unfair to players with little time to invest, but that's how every game ever has been. That's the kind of game that M&M needs to be but I seriously doubt they'll deliver based on what i've seen so far. I'll definitely play the EA though if I can.

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This is the downfall of MMOs if you want to be honest.

The type of people that have 20-40 hours to spend and are interested in spending it on an MMO in 2026 is not the type of “community” any sane person wants to be part of. This was less true in 2000.

Give it another 10-15 years and maybe it’ll be more fun when normal dudes are retiring.

They already have this in Asian mmos. You are limited to the amount of content you can play on the daily and weekly. People can't play the game 40 hours a week because they're not allowed. Of course some of them have pay to win methods to get around this, but that's what you're wanting. Something that won't let no lifers blast past everyone, but you can also be "done" with in a short amount of time. Those games also suck ass.

I think people are overestimating the amount of poopsockers that are going to be playing this game. Let's say it's like 1 in 20 people and they get 5k subs, you're talking about 250 people spread across a few servers. They get to high level fast with all their shared tips and tricks within the first month or two and dominate the end game and either continue to contest high-level content or stop playing (for good or til theres more content). The other 4750 people (the bulk of their subscribers) are going to take far longer to get to end game. This imagined playerbase that knows everything about the game and is ruining the fun for everyone else feels a bit contrived

Exactly. For everyone of me there will be 10-20 hekotats. Even in alpha there is the ‘casual’ base I can easily identify just by the kinds of things they say in ooc or things they want to trade for. Now some of those will progress to hardcore /poopsockers, but more casual may show up. At some point there may very well be friction at the top as people become frustrated with mega autists locking them out of content, as I don’t see this small team having the capacity to make enough horizontal or layered content to spread out the endgame enuf to leave stuff for everyone, as what happened in eq from release to pop . But with ai and stuff who knows maybe I will be wrong, hopefully. What I do know is it will take 1-2 years to hit that wall for most people, definitely not 3-6 weeks or months