Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Having loot tables spread across levels of [named] mobs is an interesting idea. But you then make the loot tables ginormous and remove the cool factor of where X item is from.

At that point it might just be better to have stuff drop crafting mats and rely on player agency to make items. Lore fluff designs like needing to use The Black Anvil in BRD to make certain items were always peak MMO to me. I greatly encourage stuff like that.

Simply due to game geography I don't see how you avoid the problem of dungeons nobody goes to. Players will naturally gravitate to the most accessible and best loot/xp areas. Obviously. If your super cool dungeon is like Paw whelp. Might be cool but it'll be some trouble getting out there. Even with those pages or whatever for XP I remember. But you had to be human to even use them sooo.
 
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Kithani

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I've done that. I've done that soo many times. There are 100s of games that provide that. There will be 100s more that believe in this weird everyone gets a shot commie utopia. I have zero interest in paying for everyone gets a wack at it again. You cannot be the hero tier if you didn't struggle for it. If you cannot fail the challenge is insulting. Therefore i'm willing to pay for this game for a change.

*i'm not that motivated really, but just instance it bro makes my motivation to even try negative.
The irony of calling other games communist while advocating for a game that caters to people who want to dominate by playing on their computers 40+ hours a week as grown ass adults while the rest of us actually contribute to society
 
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Gravel

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THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. It's bad world design because they didn't know what the fuck they were doing. Mentioning Chardok is a wild self own, since it was redesigned and is now the most popular Kunark Dungeon.

You don't need 8 picks of LGuk. if you drop the spawn timer from 22 mins to like 11, change the layout of Live side and make it more inline with deadside. It now holds 4x the players. You make things like CT and Paw more viable.

But MUH FBSS. Cool it's now a drop tied to any named in the level range
Except MnM is purposefully going for a pace of gaming that's super slow, closer to vanilla EQ. You're basically describing a solution to a game that isn't being made.
 
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vegetoeeVegetoee

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Or you know, instance the content YOU DO HAVE and profit. So then everyone can consumer it

Having loot tables spread across levels of [named] mobs is an interesting idea. But you then make the loot tables ginormous and remove the cool factor of where X item is from.

At that point it might just be better to have stuff drop crafting mats and rely on player agency to make items. Lore fluff designs like needing to use The Black Anvil in BRD to make certain items were always peak MMO to me. I greatly encourage stuff like that.

Simply due to game geography I don't see how you avoid the problem of dungeons nobody goes to. Players will naturally gravitate to the most accessible and best loot/xp areas. Obviously. If your super cool dungeon is like Paw whelp. Might be cool but it'll be some trouble getting out there. Even with those pages or whatever for XP I remember. But you had to be human to even use them sooo.
You could do a bit of both. Some dungneons could have shared loot drops maybe for items that they know will be camped 24/7. Some dungeons could not and have some unique ones to scratch the itch of the poopsockers, etc. Could also have crafting items from mats off these mobs.
 
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TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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I'll add that even in Classic WOW one of my very favorite dungeons was Sunken Temple. But if you were Horde it was in the ass end of nowhere and nobody was really willing to go out there unless they absolutely had to. The items were just a bit behind LBRS and Scholo so that didn't help either.

If you're designing dungeons at all you need to be extremely careful about that kind of placement and itemization.

On paper I prefer a MMO that increases player agency by having the best items be crafted things. Or at least near-tier equivalents. This also can increase player interaction. But if you need Big Dick Blacksmith to personally go with you to craft your item on the Black Anvil this ends up being just a big hassle. So there does need to be some middle ground.
 

Mrniceguy

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The idea that billion-dollar studios with legal departments, proprietary anti-cheat tech, full-time security engineers, and direct relationships with platform holders are just sitting there twirling their mustaches choosing not to ban bots is peak Reddit brain. They don't "choose not to." They fight it constantly and still lose ground because it's an arms race and botters constantly adapt. They spoof hardware IDs, virtualize, rotate IPs, human-assist, test enforcement patterns, etc. They operate like businesses because they quite literally are businesses. Most of these operations are located in India, Russia, China, etc. where they make more money bot farming than they do wanting to jump out of a window by working at a Foxconn plant.

Blizzard's Diablo 2 vs Project Diablo 2. Private Indy modders vs One of the largest companies in the industry. D2 is easily the most botted game of all time. Yet botting doesn't exist on PD2. It's not they can't do it. It's that they choose not too.

That's exactly what they're doing. They're a for profit company, their rules enforcement is done in a way that optimizes profit. More botters = gold inflation = more people pay for Krono/WoW token because farming the gold themselves becomes non-viable. Botters are paying subs, If you ban the botters quickly the botters don't make money and then they don't come back and pay for subs, if you do it in waves the botters view it as a cost of doing business and they come back. If you don't ban the botters ever some % of regular players quit. They try to do ban waves to make it look like they care, to minimize the % of regular players that quit.

When Holly Longdale was Lead at Daybreak she had Discord leaks of her talking with the botters/RMT about what degree of cheating would be ok on the next EQ TLP. She's VP over at WOW now.
 
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Mrniceguy

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Having loot tables spread across levels of [named] mobs is an interesting idea. But you then make the loot tables ginormous and remove the cool factor of where X item is from.

I've played games with both systems, it's way more fun with the Big loot tables and people do actually spread out with the Big Loot tables.

Except MnM is purposefully going for a pace of gaming that's super slow, closer to vanilla EQ. You're basically describing a solution to a game that isn't being made.

I know. But people will hit level cap at some point. I understand it's primarily a game about the journey not the destination.
 

Kirun

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Blizzard's Diablo 2 vs Project Diablo 2. Private Indy modders vs One of the largest companies in the industry. D2 is easily the most botted game of all time. Yet botting doesn't exist on PD2. It's not they can't do it. It's that they choose not too.

That's exactly what they're doing. They're a for profit company, their rules enforcement is done in a way that optimizes profit. More botters = gold inflation = more people pay for Krono/WoW token because farming the gold themselves becomes non-viable. Botters are paying subs, If you ban the botters quickly the botters don't make money and then they don't come back and pay for subs, if you do it in waves the botters view it as a cost of doing business and they come back. If you don't ban the botters ever some % of regular players quit. They try to do ban waves to make it look like they care, to minimize the % of regular players that quit.

When Holly Longdale was Lead at Daybreak she had Discord leaks of her talking with the botters/RMT about what degree of cheating would be ok on the next EQ TLP. She's VP over at WOW now.
Botting "doesn't exist" on PD2? Or it exists at a scale small enough that volunteer moderation plus aggressive enforcement can manage it? Those are very different claims. Scale changes everything. PD2 runs on a fraction of Blizzard's scale, with a fraction of the visibility, and a fraction of the financial incentive attached to it.

But yes, monetization systems distort enforcement incentives. That's a valid criticism. But it cuts both ways. If MnM ever introduces tradeable time tokens, cash shop cosmetics, or secondary monetization, the exact same pressure will apply. Revenue math doesn't magically stop existing because a team is indie. The real test isn't whether a small team intends to "ban bots harder". It's whether they can sustain that level of manual enforcement when the game is visible, monetized, and attractive to RMT. Good intentions scale poorly.
 

Khane

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It exists, but at such a small scale because of aggressive anti-cheat policies it hardly effects the game economy at all.

PD2 had ~15k concurrent users and 24k viewers on Twitch this past season launch. It maintained 10k concurrent online users for weeks into the season as well. Just as a comparison.
 

Mrniceguy

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Botting "doesn't exist" on PD2? Or it exists at a scale small enough that volunteer moderation plus aggressive enforcement can manage it? Those are very different claims. Scale changes everything. PD2 runs on a fraction of Blizzard's scale, with a fraction of the visibility, and a fraction of the financial incentive attached to it.

I've played on it for multiple seasons. Never seen a bot in a pug game, never seen a bot on the ladder, never seen a spam tell, there are no well know botting programs ect. Can i say there is 0 bots? No, if they exist they're basically invisible and don't effect the economy or the ladder. If its on a scale that small does it really matter.

If you don't count bots as players PD2 has been larger than the official BNet servers for it's existence, if you count bots as players PD2 is still bigger at the start of a ladder season. PD2 is crowdfunded and run by a small indy team that doesn't want bots. So there are basically no bots.

PD2 has such a high trust community that people drop trade the most valuable items in the game in pug games. Because everyone knows that shit won't get jacked, because the rules are actually enforced.

Every MMO EMU community is the same, if the people producing it don't want bots. There are little or no bots.

Large corporations will continue to allow people to bot, not because they can't stop them but because it makes them money to allow it. This will change only after other players start voting with their dollars.
 

Kirun

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It exists, but at such a small scale because of aggressive anti-cheat policies it hardly effects the game economy at all.

PD2 had ~15k concurrent users and 24k viewers on Twitch this past season launch. It maintained 10k concurrent online users for weeks into the season as well. Just as a comparison.
And that's great for PD2. Seriously. It's an impressive achievement for a mod project. But let's separate a few things...

First, 10-15k concurrent on a seasonal ARPG server is not the same ecosystem as a persistent MMORPG with an always-on economy, contested spawns, long-term character progression, and subscription revenue tied to account longevity. ARPG seasons reset - characters get wiped and the whole economy resets. The incentive window for large-scale, industrial RMT is different.

Second, PD2 is built on a 20+ year old game with a known codebase and a smaller attack surface. The mod team has the luxury of designing their anti-cheat posture specifically around one tightly scoped ruleset. They can aggressively police because the scale is limited, the monetization model isn't tied to recurring subscription metrics, the RMT upside isn't equivalent to a persistent MMO economy (because it wipes) and the team can swing the ban hammer without worrying about churn optics, investor optics, or long-term account value. That's a completely different pressure profile.

Also (and this matters) PD2's concurrent numbers during a season launch spike are not the same thing as sustained, year-round, monetized concurrency. ARPGs spike hard at season start and decay. That model is actually easier to police because the lifecycle is predictable and resets naturally clear economic inflation. An MMO doesn't reset.

If MnM somehow hits 10k+ sustained concurrent users for weeks, with visible loot scarcity and tradable value, you don't think that changes the bot calculus? Visibility + scarcity + monetization = incentive. I'm not saying aggressive anti-cheat can't mitigate the problem. It absolutely can. I'm pushing back on the idea that "Blizzard chooses not to" while implying a small team can just enforce harder and solve it. It's not about caring more. It's about operating environment, scale, and incentive structures.

If MnM stays tiny and niche, sure...maybe botting stays relatively contained. But the second it grows into something even moderately successful, the pressure changes instantly. EQ TLPs pull numbers that are probably in the same ballpark MnM is realistically aiming for, and those servers are botted to absolute hell. Yes, some of that is Daybreak's gray-area enforcement and Krono incentives. But let's not pretend they're some massive enforcement juggernaut either - their live team is small. Likely not that different in scale from what MnM would be working with. So the question keeps coming back to the same thing: How?

How does a tiny indie team that is still part-time (and telling you they need your $15/month to be full-time), still scaling, and still building core systems simultaneously police 24/7 automation, RMT farms, and camp lock-down behavior better than studios with more tooling and more experience? It's not me saying "it's impossible." It's me asking for the actual mechanism. What's the plan? What's the tech? What's the manpower? What's the enforcement philosophy? Because "we'll handle it" isn't a strategy. And history tells us games operating at the exact population scale being discussed suggests this problem doesn't magically solve itself by "caring more".
 

Khane

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I don't care about MnM and arguing with dipshits who pretend they like "old school" mechanics when in reality they just want to lord their playtime over everyone else because they *think* they will be on the right side of the resource hogging is a fool's errand.

I just happened to click the thread and responded to some info about PD2.
 
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Drapdis

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I don't care about MnM and arguing with dipshits who pretend they like "old school" mechanics when in reality they just want to lord their playtime over everyone else because they *think* they will be on the right side of the resource hogging is a fool's errand.

I just happened to click the thread and responded to some info about PD2.
This man cannot even take accountability for his own posts. He is randomly clicking on things, like a bot.
 

Lodi

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And really is this what you fuckers want? A dungeon with 60 people all of them cramped into corners camping the same 3 fucking mobs for hours? Is this what you guys call fun? Instead of having 1/2 or more of it to yourself and actually crawling through it with your buds when its an instance? WHENEVER YOU FUCKING WANT TO?
Yes. This is what I want. Camping shit with buds and bullshitting is peak gaming.
 
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Pasteton

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So so much wasted breath in here, Christ. Just confirms the game isn’t for most people. There’s a lot of valid points being made here , to which the most frequent answer is simply this game isn’t for you. This game is for me and people like me.

There are literally things /friction that people are complaining about in here that I actually enjoy and want. It’s such a fundamental divide that I can’t even argue the point. It’s like trying to tell someone how great pussy is when all they crave is a massive black cock.

if there’s enough people like me, the game gonna do well atleast for a couple years, assuming they can’t keep up with content, which is a tall order imho. After that it may coast on some die hards. This game isn’t the second coming of Christ but fills a niche that I’ve been looking for for a while. Maybe that’s not enuf for them but it seems to be in line with what their stated goals have been
 

Mrniceguy

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They can aggressively police because the scale is limited, the monetization model isn't tied to recurring subscription metrics,

That's a big wall of Cope. But When it comes to PD2 "monetization model." They're tied to recurring donations, that people could cancel if they want. What they don't have is shareholders who don't care how good the game is only what the bottom line says. This again is the only part that actually matters. All these companies would instantly do away with botting if the community spoke with their dollars.

GaaS can track your, play time, the amount of Orc pawns you kill, the amount of clicks you make, the behavior of your mouse, how many ore nodes you click ect. They know who botting and isn't. if bots aren't being banned, It's because they don't want them to be. It really is just that simple man.
 

Sythrak

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As I said before, why can't you have both? You can have limited open world spawns for the sweaties, and instanced raids for the casuals. I don't understand why it has to be only one or the other.
 
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