Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO
- Thread starter Flobee
- Start date
Gravel
Mr. Poopybutthole
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This is what I said about this one and AoC a while ago. Developers love huge sprawling worlds for some reason, but they end up being 90% empty as everyone filters into the most effective zones. Because literally no one wants to go to a subpar leveling (or loot) area. One, because it's just an ineffective use of time, but also because that's where you'll find more people, and therefore groups.
They'd be better off just making the minimal number of zones for leveling and spending all their time on end game zones. Because every second that they spend on the 4th best exp zone is entirely a waste.
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Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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I think you're absolutely right. I mean, it's not like modern tools don't dramatically reduce the time it takes to design encounters, build zones, script AI, balance loot tables, test everything, and then maintain it all long-term. Clearly you just click the "Make 7x More Content" button in the editor and it spits out seven fully realized zones, bosses, and progression paths overnight. The technology practically does the creative work for you at this point.7x the content when compared to a game created with 1999 tools. I think you're gunna be surprised. I've said it before but their tooling is legitimately impressive.Kirun finally getting it, love to see it
Honestly, people comparing it to games built with 1999 tools are just being pessimistic. If anything, modern tooling should mean we get way more than seven times the content - probably 14x, minimum.
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Kaines
Potato Supreme
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They are plannning for an absurd amount of content. The issue is EA has next to none. If EA flops, the game flops.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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7x the content when compared to a game created with 1999 tools. I think you're gunna be surprised. I've said it before but their tooling is legitimately impressive.
i don’t know why im engaging with this red herring argument, but here goes.
How do you define ‘legitimately impressive’ with regard to content production speed in MNM? How do you reconcile the fact that 14 months after players gained access (which was months after zone design began), Faelindral still has incomplete propping, housing, NPC population/pathing etc?
How does the speed we’ve seen so far support your position here? Why should the speed we’ve seen so far give players comfort that content will be developed at a pace that will have downward pressure on player content monopolization?
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Flobee
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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You should look into their wardrobe system as an example. They've made it so they can scale any texture for any humanoid to any other humanoid. Giants and dwarves, same textures. Need a new faction? You've got tooling to create a complete new set of giants, dwarves, gnomes whatever, with just one net new texture (base texture/skin in this case). They do similar things with other model types but I've only seen a little bit of it.
You may not fully realize how much time that saves, but it's massive. You're making visual pieces a single time and can mix match and apply everywhere.
Modern engines allow changing geometry, spawn points, tables etc to be a lot faster than older games. MNM used a live database as well (so did EQ I think) so they can make changes without even bringing servers down.
The approach of making oversized zones actually works with the idea that instead of expanding the game world with future content ... you're just going to fill it more densely. Plus if you're not adding geometry that propping, patching etc is only done once then perhaps tweaked from that point forward.
My overall point with my defense of the MNM approach is really simple. WoW solved a bunch of issues that EQ had and was objectively a better game. Every game since has just taken the WoW solution and gone with the assumption it's the only or best way to solve those problems. MNM is going back and attempting to solve them in a different way. I've personally been waiting for a studio to take this approach for years, and want to see if they can pull it off. A self funded project like this is probably the only way it happens. I'm optimistic because I can see what they're trying to do, and WHY they're trying to do it.
I feel like most folks complaining don't see the why so they assume devs are just idiots or don't know that these problems exist. Maybe I'll be wrong, but I enjoy arguing on grandpa pixel forums.... Obviously
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TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Modern tooling makes game creation easier. Everyone knows this.
That is why we are discussing game design based on what they said and the state of the game as we interact with it. Not sure why you're not getting that. The retards here are correctly identifying that there currently exists nothing in the game right now, nor in their discussions that truly addresses the primary issues "classic mmos" have. Until they say otherwise or it magically appears in the game all you can extract from that is that if they haven't done anything about it then those problems must still exist and they're fine with it. At least for now.
That is why we are discussing game design based on what they said and the state of the game as we interact with it. Not sure why you're not getting that. The retards here are correctly identifying that there currently exists nothing in the game right now, nor in their discussions that truly addresses the primary issues "classic mmos" have. Until they say otherwise or it magically appears in the game all you can extract from that is that if they haven't done anything about it then those problems must still exist and they're fine with it. At least for now.
Flobee
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Go read the posts from people actually in beta saying they're using the exact kind of mitigation strategies I'm talking about.
The argument I'm addressing is specifically about their ability to create content so yes there is an argument that they can't create content quickly.
In my experience zone geometry, character and environment art, and system creation are the three biggest time suckers. Systems should presumably be in place by EA, or at least by release. Zone geometry should be done by release assuming they stick to the idea of adding more content to existing zones instead of obsoleting older zones like most games. They have solid character art pipeline as I mentioned, so what big time wasters are left for content creation? Quest design, itemization, raid encounter stuff.... That's all comparatively quick to do.
I'm open to explanation about what specifically it is about content creation that is out of reach for them with these assumptions in place? They don't have to make it fast enough to beat the poopsockers... Just fast enough for the average player to not get jammed up for 6 months straight
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Flobee
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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If fbss and GEBs drop there? Enough to help. Remember NK port is really close to Paw. Also let's give Raster a chance to spawn there to ruin
Quaid
's immersion Now what if each of those zones was 2-3x their size as well? What if server cap was similar to EQ ~2-3000? Starts to seem a bit more reasonable and these are the types of things they've talked about in the past.
Obviously they have deliver on quality for this to matter though.
BigDirty
Security Director of Crisis and Weather Management
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i was camping that cloak in a duo this AM , there we 10 ish people in the zone and it was open when i got there
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Kaines
Potato Supreme
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Cool to know that Beta population limits are what we should expect for release. Some high level thinking here....
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