fanaskin
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Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO
- Thread starter Flobee
- Start date
Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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fanaskin
was always one of the dumbest motherfuckers in the Politics thread, so it's no surprise he's a complete retard when it comes to MMOs.The thing that jumps out at me reading this discussion is how often people confuse inconvenience with good game design. Every time somebody questions one of these systems, the response is never, "Here's why this mechanic creates better gameplay." None of these old fuckers with way too much time on their hands can EVER defend their stances on these issues of "friction" from a gameplay perspective and what it is/isn't adding. Instead it's just regurgitated platitudes like, "That's how EQ did it", "It creates danger", "It doesn't "feel right" otherwise", "You just want everything easy and are a WoW zoomer!!".
At some point you have to ask whether you're defending actual gameplay or just defending nostalgia. But when you're as fucking thick and dense as people like
fanaskin
, it's very hard to access that part of your brain and ask those questions.The gate discussion from
Quaid
is a perfect example. The argument isn't that gate would somehow break progression, trivialize encounters, destroy class identity, or ruin the economy. The argument is basically -"Being unable to leave the game conveniently is part of the experience."
Think about how fucking absurd that sounds when stated plainly. We're talking about a video game in 2026 and people are seriously arguing that a player being called away by work, family, kids, emergencies, or real life obligations should potentially be punished because otherwise the world would somehow lose its sense of danger. No. That's not danger. Danger is pulling too many mobs. Danger is making a bad decision. Danger is failing an encounter. Danger is not "my daughter broke her arm and now I have to spend the next two hours thinking about my corpse run." And this mentality shows up everywhere with these ignoramus'. Manual loot distribution, campfire "maintenance" (LMAO - think about how absurd that sounds), contested content, anti-instancing arguments, travel friction, corpse recovery, etc.
It's always the same defense - "The PUNISHMENT is the point!!!!" And honestly, that's probably the most revealing statement in the entire thread. Because that's exactly the mindset that has filled the MMO graveyard for the last twenty+ years. The assumption that if players aren't being inconvenienced, frustrated, delayed, or denied access often enough, they somehow "won't value" their accomplishments.
Meanwhile the most successful MMOs on the planet spent the last two decades systematically identifying which forms of friction were actually fun and which ones were just wasting everyone's time. What's funny is that the defenders keep asking for a modern gold standard MMO. There isn't one built around these philosophies. Not one. The market answered that question years ago. These are also the same dipshits who have the mindset of, "let the free market decide!!" - yet when it comes to MMOs, somehow "REAL MMOism has never been tried before!".
People keep acting like removing bad friction killed MMOs when the exact opposite happened. And that's the funniest part of all this. The people arguing for these systems always talk as though they're defending some massive untapped audience that modern games abandoned. But where is it?
Every single retro-inspired MMO arrives with the same promise - "We're bringing back what made MMOs great!" Then it launches, attracts a small dedicated community of Luddites who more often then not live off the government and have dozens of hours of free time to play each week, who then immediately discover that there aren't actually millions of players eager to return to corpse runs, spawn camping, schedule coordination, contested camps, and administrative chores masquerading as gameplay. Because it turns out most people liked the worlds. Most people liked the exploration. Most people liked the social interaction. Most people liked the progression. What they didn't love was spending half their evening dealing with systems that existed primarily because developers in 1999 didn't yet know better alternatives.
That's why I always laugh when someone says, "The punishment is the point!" No. The fucking GAME is supposed to be the point. And if your strongest defense of a mechanic is that it makes life more annoying, you're not defending gameplay anymore. You're defending inconvenience as a design philosophy. That's not "hardcore". It's not immersive. It's not "preserving what made MMOs "special". It's just confusing obstacles for "content".
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Kaines
Potato Supreme
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moonarchia
The Scientific Shitlord
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Yup. Pretending communities don't exist in WOW and FFXIV is smooth brained at best. They aren't based around mutual suffering like EQ communities were, but they are fucking legion. So many people to talk to in chat. So many guilds and social event groups. So many raid teams. Literally *millions* of people paying subs to enjoy the shared world and what it has to offer.
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Quaid
Trump's Staff
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The thing that jumps out at me reading this discussion is how often people confuse inconvenience with good game design. Every time somebody questions one of these systems, the response is never, "Here's why this mechanic creates better gameplay." None of these old fuckers with way too much time on their hands can EVER defend their stances on these issues of "friction" from a gameplay perspective and what it is/isn't adding. Instead it's just regurgitated platitudes like, "That's how EQ did it", "It creates danger", "It doesn't "feel right" otherwise", "You just want everything easy and are a WoW zoomer!!".
At some point you have to ask whether you're defending actual gameplay or just defending nostalgia. But when you're as fucking thick and dense as people like
The gate discussion from
"Being unable to leave the game conveniently is part of the experience."
Think about how fucking absurd that sounds when stated plainly. We're talking about a video game in 2026 and people are seriously arguing that a player being called away by work, family, kids, emergencies, or real life obligations should potentially be punished because otherwise the world would somehow lose its sense of danger. No. That's not danger. Danger is pulling too many mobs. Danger is making a bad decision. Danger is failing an encounter. Danger is not "my daughter broke her arm and now I have to spend the next two hours thinking about my corpse run." And this mentality shows up everywhere with these ignoramus'. Manual loot distribution, campfire "maintenance" (LMAO - think about how absurd that sounds), contested content, anti-instancing arguments, travel friction, corpse recovery, etc.
It's always the same defense - "The PUNISHMENT is the point!!!!" And honestly, that's probably the most revealing statement in the entire thread. Because that's exactly the mindset that has filled the MMO graveyard for the last twenty+ years. The assumption that if players aren't being inconvenienced, frustrated, delayed, or denied access often enough, they somehow "won't value" their accomplishments.
Meanwhile the most successful MMOs on the planet spent the last two decades systematically identifying which forms of friction were actually fun and which ones were just wasting everyone's time. What's funny is that the defenders keep asking for a modern gold standard MMO. There isn't one built around these philosophies. Not one. The market answered that question years ago. These are also the same dipshits who have the mindset of, "let the free market decide!!" - yet when it comes to MMOs, somehow "REAL MMOism has never been tried before!".
People keep acting like removing bad friction killed MMOs when the exact opposite happened. And that's the funniest part of all this. The people arguing for these systems always talk as though they're defending some massive untapped audience that modern games abandoned. But where is it?
Every single retro-inspired MMO arrives with the same promise - "We're bringing back what made MMOs great!" Then it launches, attracts a small dedicated community of Luddites who more often then not live off the government and have dozens of hours of free time to play each week, who then immediately discover that there aren't actually millions of players eager to return to corpse runs, spawn camping, schedule coordination, contested camps, and administrative chores masquerading as gameplay. Because it turns out most people liked the worlds. Most people liked the exploration. Most people liked the social interaction. Most people liked the progression. What they didn't love was spending half their evening dealing with systems that existed primarily because developers in 1999 didn't yet know better alternatives.
That's why I always laugh when someone says, "The punishment is the point!" No. The fucking GAME is supposed to be the point. And if your strongest defense of a mechanic is that it makes life more annoying, you're not defending gameplay anymore. You're defending inconvenience as a design philosophy. That's not "hardcore". It's not immersive. It's not "preserving what made MMOs "special". It's just confusing obstacles for "content".
I should just link the VOD because at this point we're just rehashing it in its entirety.
He addresses what
Kirun
discusses above and says 'the game is trying to slow you down', because 'no studio no matter the size can keep up with the consumptive pace of the player'. He notes that they have about 250 players who have played 500 to ONE FUCKING THOUSAND+ hours since closed beta launched 92 days ago. Do the horrifying math on that one.I do think it's an interesting strategy - but a gamble for sure. Some system decisions I think will work fine and not push too many folks out, and may even have a positive impact on retention of a certain market. Punishing CRs? Fine. No maps? Ok. No fast travel? Sure. A lightsource management survival mini-game?... I guess...? I do however think there are certain things that are just non-negotiable, that will not only chase off the non-classic MMO player, but will also chase off a portion of the ones who are open to the game. Excluding a hearthstone/evac mechanic from some classes, and not providing guild-locked endgame raid content are the two most prominent examples I can think of.
I want to play this game and I'm going to whine about those two issues until the day 1.0 launches, and maybe even after.
Kaines
Potato Supreme
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Confirmation that the wrong lessons were learned. Six months post-launch is still my bet on complete population crash. But I'm leaning more and more on lowering that prediction.
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fanaskin
Well known agitator
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I have a 40 with less than 5 days played, it's really not a hard game, you have to tryhard to be this mad at it.
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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Quaid
Trump's Staff
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Kirun
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Then defend the "mechanics". That's kind of my point. Every time one of these discussions comes up, the defense immediately shifts from explaining why the mechanic improves the game to simply pointing out that it exists.
"It's not content, it's mechanics."
Okay, cool. Then explain why those mechanics are good. The fact that something is a mechanic isn't a defense of it. Plenty of mechanics are bad. Stamina bars are mechanics. Weapon durability is a mechanic. Daily chores are mechanics. Energy systems in mobile games are mechanics. The existence of a mechanic tells us absolutely nothing about whether it improves the player experience.
What I keep seeing in these discussions is people treating old mechanics as self-justifying. They aren't. Every mechanic imposes a cost on the player. Time, frustration, attention, convenience, flexibility, or some combination thereof. The question is whether the value returned exceeds the cost imposed. So make the case.
Explain why making it difficult to safely end a play session improves the game. Explain why manually distributing loot creates a better experience than modern alternatives. Explain why campfires functioning as an XP tax unless maintained are more engaging than simply balancing XP around the intended rate. Explain why corpse recovery friction creates better gameplay than other forms of challenge. And be specific.
Don't just say "it creates danger" or "it creates community" or "it creates consequences." Show the actual chain of cause and effect. Show how these mechanics result in a better game for the average player rather than simply preserving traditions from 1999.
Because from where I'm sitting, a lot of these systems seem to survive on inherited prestige from EverQuest rather than their own merits. The second someone questions them, the response is almost never an explanation of why they're fun. It's usually some variation of, "That's how old MMOs worked."
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RobXIII
Urinal Cake Consumption King
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I'll mention the pros of the lack of gate thing, though I agree 100% everyone should be able to safely get home via gate
-Caster power! It's neat that casters can be all mystical and just gate home. I felt like I gained some real power when I unlocked that one (FIZZLE FIZZLE OOM) back in 99.
-encourages group mechanics to help each other out.
..and that's it. I planned on waiting for actual release before I see if my circle of friends wants to try it. They're hard in on Pantheon, so they can only go up from there hah....
-Caster power! It's neat that casters can be all mystical and just gate home. I felt like I gained some real power when I unlocked that one (FIZZLE FIZZLE OOM) back in 99.
-encourages group mechanics to help each other out.
..and that's it. I planned on waiting for actual release before I see if my circle of friends wants to try it. They're hard in on Pantheon, so they can only go up from there hah....
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Kithani
Vyemm Raider
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I like the flavor of non-casters not getting gate but it would be cool if Gate pots are accessible or maybe there was a quest in game to get a gate idol to your deity’s shrine or something for anyone
Woefully Inept
Silver Baron of the Realm
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Don't forget you can't Gate when encumbered. How much would it suck to burn a Gate pot and not actually gate because you were overweight? Lmao
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Gravel
Mr. Poopybutthole
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You know what I mean. Yeah, maybe they keep a couple hundred for years and years. But development will slow to a crawl and it'll just be the same people grinding the same bullshit. They're not going to be drawing new players in. Ever. When I say the game will be dead in a year, I mean it'll be forgotten by everyone.
Dead game just means stagnant, not that they shutter the servers forever.
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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you're never going to have thrilling highs without without bad feelings, you need a juxtaposition. details are irrelevent to that concept