Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
22,018
19,490
I actually don't know if Kirun enjoys ANYTHING lol
I pretty much jerk off to Elden Ring. I've mentioned it multiple times as the greatest game of all time, and I constantly use it as the prime example of how to create genuine difficulty without making the game feel unfair or needlessly wasting the player's time.

I enjoy plenty of different things. My criticism of MnM isn't that I hate old-school MMO design or that I need everything to be easy. It's that I recognize the patterns in the genre.

A lot of what we're seeing with MnM feels like taking the friction of 1999-era MMOs (slow progression, limited spawns, downtime, corpse runs, forced grouping, travel friction, etc.)and treating that friction itself as the thing that made those games great. But there's a huge difference between a mechanic creating meaningful decisions, cooperation, mastery, or tension and a mechanic simply consuming more of the player's time.

Maybe they'll prove me wrong. I genuinely hope they do. But so far, I’m not seeing much that suggests they're actually breaking those patterns or fundamentally rethinking them. I’m seeing a lot of familiar MMO friction being presented as though the friction itself is the innovation.

That's why I keep bringing up Elden Ring. It proves you can make a game brutally difficult, demand mastery, punish mistakes, and create meaningful friction without confusing wasted time with meaningful difficulty.
 
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Pasteton

Vyemm Raider
3,423
2,623
. That’s like butting into a discussion about tits versus ass and raving about how great cock is. Like, you do you but that’s a totally different thing than this.
 
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Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
22,018
19,490
. That’s like butting into a discussion about tits versus ass and raving about how great cock is. Like, you do you but that’s a totally different thing than this.
It's just an example. There are plenty of other games I could point to.

Hell, I still play the shit out of EQ every few years when an interesting TLP comes around. I have absolutely no problem with an old-school MMO. But even those TLPs are usually EQ with a heavily modified ruleset and a ton of modern QoL layered on top. There's a reason only a few thousand people still actively want the authentic 1999 EQ experience.

That's ultimately my point with MnM. It's so heavily modeled on EQ that I think you have to acknowledge the math behind that design just doesn't work out long-term. You can't just assume that because EQ had these mechanics, reproducing them wholesale today will produce the same result.

So I don't really think the tits-vs-ass analogy fits. I'm not butting into a conversation about tits and ass to start talking about cock. I'm looking at people raving about how amazing these tits are while pointing out that they're clearly fake and deformed and the response is essentially, "No, they're exactly like the tits from 1999, therefore they're great, no matter how fake and deformed they are!"
 

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick
40,243
20,197
I pretty much jerk off to Elden Ring. I've mentioned it multiple times as the greatest game of all time, and I constantly use it as the prime example of how to create genuine difficulty without making the game feel unfair or needlessly wasting the player's time.

I enjoy plenty of different things. My criticism of MnM isn't that I hate old-school MMO design or that I need everything to be easy. It's that I recognize the patterns in the genre.

A lot of what we're seeing with MnM feels like taking the friction of 1999-era MMOs (slow progression, limited spawns, downtime, corpse runs, forced grouping, travel friction, etc.)and treating that friction itself as the thing that made those games great. But there's a huge difference between a mechanic creating meaningful decisions, cooperation, mastery, or tension and a mechanic simply consuming more of the player's time.

Maybe they'll prove me wrong. I genuinely hope they do. But so far, I’m not seeing much that suggests they're actually breaking those patterns or fundamentally rethinking them. I’m seeing a lot of familiar MMO friction being presented as though the friction itself is the innovation.

That's why I keep bringing up Elden Ring. It proves you can make a game brutally difficult, demand mastery, punish mistakes, and create meaningful friction without confusing wasted time with meaningful difficulty.
Well elden ring is the single greatest game of all time. I have multiple ER tattoos because I'm a big piece of shit
 

Kithani

Vyemm Raider
2,684
3,816
I’ll say I’m surprised this game hit 8k subscribers but I’d also like to see where it is in 3-6 months. More power to them though I had some fun in and thanks to the forum bro who sent me an invite but ultimately I just don’t think I have the time to waste playing these days.

I’ll be VERY surprised if it hits 16k subscribers by next week if Del Del thinks it really has only 50% of players “pre-ordering”
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
12,802
7,678
I’ll be VERY surprised if it hits 16k subscribers by next week if Del Del thinks it really has only 50% of players “pre-ordering”

I used to be in the concert business. You’d be surprised how many people delay purchases until the final moment for something they have 100% intention of purchasing anyway.

It’s not out of the realm of possibility sales double in the last 24h before launch. I’ve seen more drastic swings happen myself.
 
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...

Goonsquad Officer
8,537
20,716
I.

That's why I keep bringing up Elden Ring. It proves you can make a game brutally difficult, demand mastery, punish mistakes, and create meaningful friction without confusing wasted time with meaningful difficulty.
But you can waste your time grinding xp in elden ring
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
48,273
175,131
I’ll say I’m surprised this game hit 8k subscribers but I’d also like to see where it is in 3-6 months. More power to them though I had some fun in and thanks to the forum bro who sent me an invite but ultimately I just don’t think I have the time to waste playing these days.

I’ll be VERY surprised if it hits 16k subscribers by next week if Del Del thinks it really has only 50% of players “pre-ordering”
You also have to keep in mind subscribers isn't equal to people. I mean, how many people in this thread have said they're in for 2-3+ accounts? Which is good for their bottom line, but at the same time, it means when that single person quits, it has a multiplier attached to it.
 

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick
40,243
20,197
Ok that SK rework sounds awesome to me.

It sounds like it leaves the door open to both 2H or 1H+shield tank since they retain kick
 

vegetoeeVegetoee

Trakanon Raider
184
164
I used to be in the concert business. You’d be surprised how many people delay purchases until the final moment for something they have 100% intention of purchasing anyway.

It’s not out of the realm of possibility sales double in the last 24h before launch. I’ve seen more drastic swings happen myself.
This isn't Blink 182!
 

vegetoeeVegetoee

Trakanon Raider
184
164
Double reply, but damn those look good! Can't wait to play ranger now!
 

Araxen

Golden Baronet of the Realm
11,495
8,986
Mana feeding for necro's. No fucking thanks. Only cucks use that ability. I can't believe they brought the shit over from EQ.
 
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Del

Potato del Grande
1,432
1,462
i dunno - is it done? Fully populated and propped out? Housing set? Quests fully complete? B bolok says no you say yes.

Even if it is, it took a year+, and they have what, 8-10 more to do? To me it looks like they need a lot of funds to appreciably speed up dev time. I guess we’ll see, but this looks like 4+ years to 1.0
I'm not sure what their plans are for housing there and I have no idea about quests beyond the set of newb archer quests that I did, but they seemed more fleshed out than the newb quests I did in NH last year. The point being is that it's not bare bones and has everything required of a starting town in it right now.

I actually don't disagree with you that 1.0 could be that far away if development doesn't get sped up through EA funding. But if they can get us new modules every 6 months like they said their goal was then I won't be upset.
 
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Burns

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
9,474
18,344
Am I crazy or did they nerf Infravision? I don’t see it listed for Ogre, Dwarf?
In the post they state that Infravision is a temporary buff that will have extra abilities in the future, like outlining living beings, or some such. So it's a nerf across the board if people were going to pick it in order to lessen the effects of the shitty darkness "mechanic"... but yes, it's also gone as an option for Ogre and Dwarf (if those listed racials are comprehensive). They did give Gnomes and Gobos an Ultravision option though. Edit: misread Infra for Ultra

I ran around the stress test for an hour or so and Ultravision seems like it really has no downside (I can't see the castle way off in the distance... who cares). Dark Elves look better than woodies but when going over the newer race options/styles, woodies didn't look quite as much like the crack fiends I remember, either. I actually like the way Deep Gnomes look but short races still suck!

With the changes to Infravision, how stupid the dark mechanic is, and the total lack of Ultravision spells, anyone not choosing Ultravision is shooting themselves in the foot.
 
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