Pigbenis
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You're being a bit short sighted especially considering our future draft pick status. Personally I think Lebron, Love, & Wiggins > Lebron, Love, & Kyrie.
NBA 2014 Off-Season Thread
- Thread starter Djay
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Angelwatch
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I'm interested to see how Kyrie Irving plays when he's on a contending team. He's a legitimately good player but I want to see if he has what it takes to be great.
I'm also not too thrilled with the idea of trading Wiggins for Love. Wiggins is young but he has a TON of potential. Unfortunately that potential won't be fully realized for a couple of years and Lebron is in "win it now" mode. And what Lebron wants, Lebron gets so we'll likely lose Wiggins for Love.
I'm also not too thrilled with the idea of trading Wiggins for Love. Wiggins is young but he has a TON of potential. Unfortunately that potential won't be fully realized for a couple of years and Lebron is in "win it now" mode. And what Lebron wants, Lebron gets so we'll likely lose Wiggins for Love.
Djay
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I'm not sure that word means what you think it does. Short-sighted is trading Wiggins-for-Love. The fact that I'm against that move makes me the opposite of short-sighted. You realize that all trade scenarios out there have Cleveland sending those picks to Minnesota as part of the trade, right? The current incarnation is Bennett, Wiggins, two 1sts and your back-up big man to make salaries work.
Szlia
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With James returning to Cleveland, I realize I have a problem: What team is there to hate now? The Heat was easy to hate, but not so much anymore as the super trio's cocky dream of innumerable rings has been shattered. And hating on Cleveland feels like hating a battered wife... Sport is fiction and a good fiction needs a good villain and there is none in sight
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LiquidDeath
Magnus Deadlift the Fucktiger
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In professional sports, I'd much rather have proven all-star ability than some sort of nebulous "potential". Just because a kid can jump out of the gym and has other incredible measurables doesn't mean he is going to be a super star.
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A lot of people have this take and I think it's complete insanity. You're even a stats guy. What about Wiggins production at Kansas justifies his hype? He is yet again another player in the long line of OJ Mayos, Derrick Favors and Harrison Barnes that is overrated because of his pre college recruitment. Now, Wiggins is without question the best prospect of that bunch and he has superstar potential, but these fans expecting him to be an all NBA defender day one and a super star in 3 years simply didn't watch him play in college. He doesn't have much of a handle, he is in love with the mid range jumper and despite his elite athleticism, didn't defend at an elite level in the Big 12. Marcus Smart had a much, MUCH better defensive season playing in the same conference.
That's a realistic take on Wiggins. It doesn't discount his potential, but raises what are real question marks about his game.
Love is probably a top 5 player in the league and at the very worst he's top 10. This last season he scored over 2k points, pulled down over 950 boards and dished out over 300 assist. Want to see the entire list of players in the history of the league who have had a season like that? Kareem, Barkley, Baylor, Wilt, Duncan, McAdoo and Oscar Robertson. That's pretty fucking elite company dudes.
Right now Wiggins is all potential. Does he become a good NBA player? Probably pretty likely. Great? Maybe...sure, why not. Is he ever going to bethatgood? I would bet significant money he doesn't.
Here's the other thing. Lebron has a two year deal and second year he can opt out of. What if you roll the dice on Wiggins and he's the next Michael Beasley? Why would you dismiss what is a legitimate contending team right now for a potential contending team down the line? Isn't the idea to both win now AND keep Lebron in Ohio the rest of his career?
You guys seem to also key in on flexibility and how love limits that. News flash: The Cavs don't have any flexibility right now. They're over the cap. There isn't cap room to add talent around James as is.
The worst part of this whole scenario are the Cavs fans that want a deal but think we're asking for too much. "Love is going to walk no matter what so the most I'd give up is Anthony Bennett." LOL. Kill me please.
This deal is a no brainer. And every single Cavs fan that regrets it now will eat crow 10 games into the season when Love drops his first 30/20 game of the season.
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Flip does love him some Klay Thompson. I do too, just not interested in him at the max contract we'd have to pay to keep him here.
Djay
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Right, the Cavs are at the cap now...which is why they have to throw a bunch of contracts in the mix to make the math work for the trade. Specifically Brendan Haywood who has a cap figure over 10 million for 2015/16. If they use the space on Love, they have no ability to add other pieces. If they keep Wiggins on his rookie contract, they have 10million that summer to add pieces. This is what I'm talking about when I say that trade puts them in the same position Miami was in with no flexibility. Now they're at the cap with flexibility. If they bring in Love, they're at the cap with no flexibility.
As far as Wiggins, I think he's way ahead of Barnes, Mayo, and Favors, which you admit. I think he's a future all-star. Now...is he a perennial starting all-star? I don't know...I think he could be. I saw flashes of brilliance at Kansas beyond his high school hype. I won't argue that other rookies aren't better now, but I think Wiggins has the higher ceiling. So, again...try to win in this 1-2 year window or build a sustainable program for the future? I said as much earlier that I understand wanting to put all your chips in now and try to win it all now...especially if you're a team like Cleveland.
You know I'm high on Love, so it's nothing about him. I have no doubt that Irving/Love/LeBron would be in the Finals...if not this year (due to learning curves), then next year. My only concern is what happens after that. I totally agree that Love is worth what they're asking. I just think keeping Wiggins gives you the best chance at being good for the next 10 years, instead of the next 3. Neither of us can be certain...we're not in practices, we don't know how quickly Wiggins learns, how smart he is, how teachable he is, or any of that miscellaneous stuff. If he ends up being a borderline all-star, then a Love trade right now is a no-brainer. If he ends up being an MVP, then you probably don't want to pull that trigger. The problem right now is that we don't know where that pendulum is swinging.
Like I said before, I'm torn...I lean towards keeping Wiggins, but I see the argument the other way. I just don't think it's a slam dunk like you do.
Ambiturner
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I'd have to go with Love, assuming he'd agree to resign. If Wiggins ends up being as good as Love is now then that would be considered a success, and likely won't happen until Lebron starts to decline in the next fews years. Plus, a big man that's great from 3 and is a rebounding monster is everything Bosh couldn't be in Miami
Of course if Love won't commit to resigning I'd definitely stick with Wiggins
Of course if Love won't commit to resigning I'd definitely stick with Wiggins
Pharazon
Silver Knight of the Realm
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I think if you put a gun to Cleveland's head and said Wiggins for Love today or never, they'd probably do it. Thing is, they have no reason to rush into a deal on that. If they play up to the trade deadline as is and Love still hasn't been dealt, at the worst a Wiggins for Love deal is probably still there. At best they've figured out Wiggins is a keeper, Love's trade value has dropped a little with more time because he's getting closer to opting out, and they get Love for Bennet + Waiters + picks.
Right now Flip is trying to play this game of brinkmanship between Cleveland and GS, but nobody seems to be playing with him. (His?) guys are floating phony rumors that Klay and Wiggins are now on the table in an effort to actually get either into a trade, but nobody has been biting. Maybe it'll work, but I don't really see a need for either team to overpay at this point if they think there is no imminent danger of Love getting traded.
I hope they opt to keep Wiggins, and not just cause I hope Love eventually ends up in GS. I think the East playoffs would be the most interesting they've been in years if Cleveland just runs with the squad they have right now. If they replace Wiggins with Love, that big 3 is better than what Miami had last year and the East playoffs are probably a joke yet again, probably for the next 4 years or so. I also really want to see Wiggins play with those guys because Lebron and Kyrie would allow Wiggins to contribute regardless of his currents deficiencies (shooting, handles). All he'd have to do playing with those guys would be play D, finish, board, and learn. It'd be interesting to watch it unfold.
Put Love in with those guys, and it's going to be like the Celtics and Miami's big 3. You knew from the moment those squads were put together that they were going to dominate in the East. It messes up league parity and I really dislike it. The West is super exciting because you have a lot of good teams with just 2 stars (or even only 1). The East has been dominated by 3 star teams for most of the last 7? years or so now, and I'm pretty tired of seeing it. It makes for boring playoff basketball. Lebron has Kyrie now, does he absolutely need a 3rd star to win all his titles? In a league where no other teams have 3 stars?
Right now Flip is trying to play this game of brinkmanship between Cleveland and GS, but nobody seems to be playing with him. (His?) guys are floating phony rumors that Klay and Wiggins are now on the table in an effort to actually get either into a trade, but nobody has been biting. Maybe it'll work, but I don't really see a need for either team to overpay at this point if they think there is no imminent danger of Love getting traded.
I hope they opt to keep Wiggins, and not just cause I hope Love eventually ends up in GS. I think the East playoffs would be the most interesting they've been in years if Cleveland just runs with the squad they have right now. If they replace Wiggins with Love, that big 3 is better than what Miami had last year and the East playoffs are probably a joke yet again, probably for the next 4 years or so. I also really want to see Wiggins play with those guys because Lebron and Kyrie would allow Wiggins to contribute regardless of his currents deficiencies (shooting, handles). All he'd have to do playing with those guys would be play D, finish, board, and learn. It'd be interesting to watch it unfold.
Put Love in with those guys, and it's going to be like the Celtics and Miami's big 3. You knew from the moment those squads were put together that they were going to dominate in the East. It messes up league parity and I really dislike it. The West is super exciting because you have a lot of good teams with just 2 stars (or even only 1). The East has been dominated by 3 star teams for most of the last 7? years or so now, and I'm pretty tired of seeing it. It makes for boring playoff basketball. Lebron has Kyrie now, does he absolutely need a 3rd star to win all his titles? In a league where no other teams have 3 stars?
Jovec
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That's not the equation though:
It's LeBron, Kyrie, and Love vs LeBron, Kyrie, Wiggins, and who else can be signed with Love's salary.
It's a very tough decision. Yes, Love is the "win now" choice, unless keeping Wiggins allows the Cavs to put a better team/bench around LeBron.
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First, false rumors? In this day and age who knows what the truth is, but no team is ever going to admit they're shopping their players. Maybe Thompson and Wiggins are both on the table right now, maybe not, but neither team is going to go out to the public and be like 'yeah we'll confirm here before any deal has been reached that we're considering trading key players. Sorry dudes, no hard feelings. Hopefully you don't mind still playing for us if we don't trade you!' Come one, man. Don't be that dense.
Otherwise, I agree with a lot of what you've said up there with exception of the "get love for lesser assets" portion. I don't have much faith in Flip, but his stance here needs to be Wiggins or bust and he needs to stick to that. Personally, I don't really care if that happens at the deadline or as a sign and trade in the offseason or not at all. The worst thing he can do in this situation, is accept what you're laying out, that "something is better than nothing." That isn't true at all. I don't want to pay Anthony Bennett 6 million dollars a year for the next 4 years. Nor do I want to pay Waiters 5 or whatever he makes for the next three. I don't really care if Waiters has a decent chance of becoming a rotation player in the NBA nor do I have any interest in paying someone that just had arguably the worst first season for a first overall draft pick ever that much money. If we get to next offseason, no team has budged on either an established core player or one that has that potential, you let Love walk, you free up that 16 million dollars in salary and you tell both the Warriors and Cavs to go fuck themselves. There is zero good that can come from Flip playing hard ball now only to bend over and take it in a few months.
You listen to me Cleveland. You're giving me Wiggins or you're not getting Love. Those are your two choices. Not that you'll wait me out and I'll give you love for your blown draft picks at a later time. Trade for him now, or enjoy watching him play for the Lakers after next season. Make them call this bluff. Trading love for Bennett and Waiters (or Barnes and Lee) puts us in the exact same place we are just letting Love walk. We're still a shitty team with only one 'core' piece (Rubio) that needs to bottom out in the lottery.
I don't want to deal with the Warriors at all but if you're Flip and you love Thompson as much as he apparently does, you tell them the same thing.
Otherwise, I agree with a lot of what you've said up there with exception of the "get love for lesser assets" portion. I don't have much faith in Flip, but his stance here needs to be Wiggins or bust and he needs to stick to that. Personally, I don't really care if that happens at the deadline or as a sign and trade in the offseason or not at all. The worst thing he can do in this situation, is accept what you're laying out, that "something is better than nothing." That isn't true at all. I don't want to pay Anthony Bennett 6 million dollars a year for the next 4 years. Nor do I want to pay Waiters 5 or whatever he makes for the next three. I don't really care if Waiters has a decent chance of becoming a rotation player in the NBA nor do I have any interest in paying someone that just had arguably the worst first season for a first overall draft pick ever that much money. If we get to next offseason, no team has budged on either an established core player or one that has that potential, you let Love walk, you free up that 16 million dollars in salary and you tell both the Warriors and Cavs to go fuck themselves. There is zero good that can come from Flip playing hard ball now only to bend over and take it in a few months.
You listen to me Cleveland. You're giving me Wiggins or you're not getting Love. Those are your two choices. Not that you'll wait me out and I'll give you love for your blown draft picks at a later time. Trade for him now, or enjoy watching him play for the Lakers after next season. Make them call this bluff. Trading love for Bennett and Waiters (or Barnes and Lee) puts us in the exact same place we are just letting Love walk. We're still a shitty team with only one 'core' piece (Rubio) that needs to bottom out in the lottery.
I don't want to deal with the Warriors at all but if you're Flip and you love Thompson as much as he apparently does, you tell them the same thing.
Araxen
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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The Wiggins deal won't last till the trade deadline. If Wiggins isn't doing well enough at the trade deadline the Wolves won't deal for him. His value will be known. Right now his value isn't know by either side. It's just a guess right now and you can't judge off Summer League performances. These guys are playing against non-drafted players for the most part so they should be doing well against that level of talent.
Personally if Boston has Smart on the table I would rather they deal Love for him. I think he's going to be a better player plus the Celtics have Brooklyn's first rounders which should turn out to be a better value than the picks Cleveland holds. Of course the Wolves FO doesn't want to do the Boston trade since the last star we traded away was with Boston also. The fans still have a sour taste in their mouth over that.
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Not it isn't. This is the reality:
LeBron, Kyrie, Wiggins, Waiters, Thompson, MLE signings and whatever you can get for Brendon Haywood's expiring 10 mil contract next season
vs
LeBron, Kyrie, Love, MLE signings
The Cavs are over the capright now. So yes, while they would be absorbing Love's salary (in exchange for Wiggins + two scrubs), there isn't some alternate reality here where they're allowed to bypass salary cap rules and sign whoever they want with that 16 million dollars. Thats tied up pre trade as well as post trade. Those are the rules.
Djay, if this deal could be done without including Haywoods 2 million turning 10 million expiring next season deal would you then be in favor of it? As is, that contract + luring vets with their exceptions + smart drafting are the only methods this team has to add talent.
At the end of the day it comes down to how highly you value Wiggins and what you think you can net for that Haywood contract next year. However, I do think there is probably a way to shuffle pieces around to where we don't get that contract (although we would obviously want it).
Pigbenis
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Dude the Cavs can pull off some stupid 3 team trade involving Kyrie. It's would be a risky move no doubt, but Lebron, Wiggins, and Love would be a powerhouse defense.
Djay
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Yeah, I need some way to improve the supporting cast beyond next season. You can only do so much with veterans taking exceptions to come play with LeBron. So, we're talking about a starting lineup of Varajao, Love, LeBron, Waiters, and Irving right now if we do the Wiggins/Bennett/Haywood/picks trade. That leaves a bench of probably Thompson, Miller, Allen, and Dellavedova. Thompson and Varajao are free agents in 2015. I think you end up losing Thompson to a team that puts in a poison pill offer sheet.
Bennett's on his rookie deal until 2017 (and is supposedly looking a lot better), so I might offer Wiggins/Waiters/Thompson instead and maybe try to keep the Heat's draft pick. That gives me a player on his rookie salary for longer and gives me that expiring contract to try to add a piece during the 2015/2016 season. It also frees up guard minutes for Miller and Allen if the goal is to win this year, but keep flexibility for the future.
I still think a 3-star team is an incredibly difficult and risky tightrope to walk in today's NBA. If you knew that the next CBA was going to make it easier on repeat offenders or to pay your stars to stay, then I'd feel better about it. Either way, it's risky. I'm either betting on Wiggins being a star or betting on being able to bring in cheap FAs to play with LeBron to fill in the gaps every year. Or hoping that LeBron/Love take paycuts to keep the team together after next year.
I'd probably do what someone above suggested and just see how November/December go with Wiggins. Is he meshing well? Developing fast? If not, make the early January trade for Love then.
Jovec
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Wiggins will be getting approximately $5.5, $5.5, $6, $7.5, and $9.5 over the next 5 years on his rookie deal. Love will be getting (or asking) $15-$18+ per? The cap relief doesn't come this year as you say, but over the next 5. Love may give the Cavs a better team this year, but what about the next 4?
Love gives you offense and rebounds. But the addition of LeBron should improve the offense of everyone else by default. Wiggins also has the potential to offload some defensive responsibility from LeBron, saving his legs (LeBron should pass 50,000 NBA minutes this season - Kobe's sitting around 55,000 for reference).
The Cavs may also be trying to be too greedy, hoping for a championship with LeBron/Kyrie/Wiggins now, while also wanting a Kyrie/Wiggins future. If I am the Cav's front office, I punt this decision to LeBron, because they don't have the leverage (with the fanbase) to keep Wiggins if they feel that is the best decision for the team. If LeBron wants Love and it goes sour, they can put it on him.