NBA 2015 Off-Season Thread

popsicledeath · Jul 4, 2015

Talks between the Cavs and Tristan Thompson have stalled since Thompson is reportedly asking for like 5-8 mil a more than the Cavs feel his contemporaries are getting, and apparently Lebron is refusing to speak to the team until they agree to Thompson's terms because they share the same agent. What are the chances of contract talks with Thompson going sour? What is Lebron going to actually do? Seems like kind of an awkward situation, and isn't that some kind of collusion or against some kind of rules or something? People were talking about it being borderline when Lebron and two all-star friends all agreed to go to the same team. Now he's flat out making it clear he won't re-sign until they over-pay his friend and agent's fellow client?

This is like Raiders level of dysfunction.

Slaythe · Jul 4, 2015

popsicledeath_sl said:
How did we go from early in the season through the first round of the playoffs talking about the Clippers being stacked and a real threat to win it all, to suddenly them just not providing CP3 with enough help?

Not to mention, everywhere CP3 has gone there has been discontent. So much so that organizations and other players don't just swallow their opinion and move on, but make a point of letting everyone know. That's an issue. As is him being known as someone who can't win big games. He's their best player, their biggest star, and other players are leaving and letting it out he's part of the reason. Dots: connect them.

Is he a hard person to get along with? Sure. I won't deny that one. But all this other stuff is just conjecture. He's averaged 21/10/5/2 shooting 48% in 65 playoff games. As a 22 year old his team won a playoff series with this sack of shit:

2007-08 New Orleans Hornets Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

If you want to point out some examples of big games that Paul didn't come through you're welcome to, but until that happens I'm just going to ignore a blanket statement like that which has no backup and continue to view CP3 as I always have: an all time player that has consistently played on teams lacking overall talent. That's the logical way to look at this, at least.

popsicledeath · Jul 4, 2015

Since when did his stats on the court have shit-all to do with the discontent that seems to follow him? It's not really fair to simply say everything I said about his personality and how he gets along with players and teams is conjecture because, uhh, he has great stats?

DickTrickle · Jul 4, 2015

It's interesting how differently you view Paul's attitude versus Kobe's when I think they're largely similar (neither tolerates poor work ethic, "soft" play, or sloppiness well). I imagine you'd respond with "Five championships" but do you think Paul would have zero championships if he replaced Kobe on those teams? There was enough discontent to make Shaq and Howard want to leave and plenty of incidences where he completely goes off on players ("These motherfuckers aren't doing shit for me."), just like it seems there was enough for Jordan. Why is Kobe a team builder and Paul a team destroyer?

On a related note, should be funny watching Kobe getting into Hibbert's shit this coming year. Hibbert gets down and sort of gives up way too easily and that's Kobe-bait right there.

Ambiturner · Jul 4, 2015

popsicledeath_sl said:
Talks between the Cavs and Tristan Thompson have stalled since Thompson is reportedly asking for like 5-8 mil a more than the Cavs feel his contemporaries are getting, and apparently Lebron is refusing to speak to the team until they agree to Thompson's terms because they share the same agent. What are the chances of contract talks with Thompson going sour? What is Lebron going to actually do? Seems like kind of an awkward situation, and isn't that some kind of collusion or against some kind of rules or something? People were talking about it being borderline when Lebron and two all-star friends all agreed to go to the same team. Now he's flat out making it clear he won't re-sign until they over-pay his friend and agent's fellow client?

This is like Raiders level of dysfunction.

It's only against the the rules if a team is using their players to recruit other players who are currently under contract with other teams.

There's no issues with players colluding on their own and even more so since they aren't even under contract

popsicledeath · Jul 5, 2015

DickTrickle_sl said:
It's interesting how differently you view Paul's attitude versus Kobe's when I think they're largely similar (neither tolerates poor work ethic, "soft" play, or sloppiness well). I imagine you'd respond with "Five championships" but do you think Paul would have zero championships if he replaced Kobe on those teams? There was enough discontent to make Shaq and Howard want to leave and plenty of incidences where he completely goes off on players ("These motherfuckers aren't doing shit for me."), just like it seems there was enough for Jordan. Why is Kobe a team builder and Paul a team destroyer?

On a related note, should be funny watching Kobe getting into Hibbert's shit this coming year. Hibbert gets down and sort of gives up way too easily and that's Kobe-bait right there.

Kobe and Paul both bitch a lot, sure, but I'd say Paul does it more often, which is a small miracle, and in a way that seems to annoy the refs more. Maybe it's the championships, I dunno, but refs seem to dislike Paul and take his complaining as whining and give Kobe more of a pass because he tends to do the MJ 'are you kidding me' stare to get makeup calls. And Kobe is a bit more of a sociopath, so he picks and chooses his moments, where Paul just seems to bitch all the time.

I don't think I've ever heard even any murmurs about Kobe being a dirty player or a flopper, both of which get said about Paul (and I personally agree).

Kobe was with some pretty shitty Laker teams, and while he threatened to leave if they didn't get help, he didn't leave, though, and right or wrong people value players that stay on the same team for their entire careers. Paul is seen as the typical young player drafted to a shitty team, can't build the team up, everyone blames management, etc, but meanwhile Paul isn't winning much on some pretty talented Clipper teams with deeper pockets. Not to mention, Paul was the one that signed an extension then basically pouted and bitched until the Hornets just wanted to dump him for nothing. And those Hornets teams weren't great, but they weren't terrible either. Second seed one year? Can't really credit Paul for doing all the work to make a team good, then give him no blame when he can't get it done in the playoffs.

Oh, that's another difference, Paul seems to deflect blame, where Kobe is pretty good about accepting it and internalizing it and letting it piss him off so he competes harder next time.

I thought the NBA vetoing the trade that would send Paul to the Lakers was bullshit, but I also think it would have been just as much of a trainwreck as the Lakers were without him. Those two on the same team would have been a soap opera, and not in a good way for anyone.

But shrug. People hate Kobe. People hate Paul. They have some similarities, sure, and maybe it's just that Kobe gets a pass because he's got rings, but whether right or wrong or you agree or don't personally, there is still a very distinct difference in public opinion of them.

popsicledeath · Jul 5, 2015

Ambiturner_sl said:
It's only against the the rules if a team is using their players to recruit other players who are currently under contract with other teams.

There's no issues with players colluding on their own and even more so since they aren't even under contract

I think the contract thing is the rub, though, and I wouldn't be surprised if owners started making it a point of contention. There was already rumblings about the Big Three and Miami with a lot of owners and execs not seeming very happy. Imagine if next time it's an entire team of 5 who are all free agents and decide to do the same. There are already situations sports leagues step in when things start getting shifty, or when players start taking too much of a home-town discount. And now the opposite is basically happening. You basically have a player who has said he's returning to a team, and everyone expects he's returning, and he isn't talking to any other teams, basically saying he's not going to sign a contract for the very reason that he can then threaten and manipulate contract talks of another player who is his friend and under the same agent, and the flat out expectation is you better pay that player more than market value. I'm sure secretly a lot of owners and execs are none too happy (because publicly we're already hearing some grumbling).

Mostly it's just interesting and weird. My main personal issue with it is that this kind of thing happens often enough, but usually on the down-low, not openly and publicly and almost as an open 'fuck you' to the Association. What's the point of letting this be so public? Maybe Lebron is trying to punish Dan Gilbert for The Letter? Maybe Lebron is making a power play to avoid what happened early in his career, allegedly, where the Cavs refused to get Lebron any talent (though, really, they got him everyone he asked for didn't they?). Maybe I'm just reading too much into it? It's just weird and not something I've ever seen before, and I think it could have some ramifications next CBA talks.

Blitz · Jul 5, 2015

Just skimmed through the last few posts.

The way I feel about CP3 is very odd, and honestly I didn't really know how I felt about him until I actually read this article awhile back that Andrew Sharp wrote for Grantland (The Clippers and the Chris Paul Paradox)

1. Chris Paul is the best point guard I've ever seen. I was too young to appreciate Isiah Thomas. John Stockton, Gary Payton, and Jason Kidd were all great, but not quite as great as Paul. That's where the conversation ends for me. You could also throw in Steve Nash, and maybe a few others, but really it's those five since Magic Johnson. And CP3 is right there with Thomas at the top. He's somehow the smartest guard in the league and the most gifted at the same time. He makes passes that shouldn't be possible. He'll wiggle around the defense and nail wide-open pull-ups as soon as he gets an inch of daylight. He'll bark out plays as the other team's calling them. He'll rip off crucial steals. He'll score in crunch time, and then draw the kind of obnoxiously smart fouls that can only be described as pure evil. It's all part of the experience with the best point guard of the past 20 years.

2. Chris Paul has never actually won anything. He is 17-25 in the playoffs. He's never played in the NBA Finals. He's never even played in the conference finals. He's been to the playoffs six times in eight years, and has made it to the second round just twice. Every time things break bad in the playoffs, we see Paul screaming at teammates before going into superhero mode and hitting a level that's as breathtaking as anything in basketball . and he loses. At the end, he always loses. For someone who's often mentioned as the third-best player in the NBA, he doesn't take a quarter of the criticism we give to guys like Carmelo Anthony, or Dwight Howard, or Dirk Nowitzki before his title. And they are all players who have been further in the playoffs than Paul ever has, and long before their eighth season. So if Paul is a team's best player, what is that team really winning? Allen Iverson was great, too, but he made a Finals and still faced endless questions about whether he could carry a franchise. Why don't we ask these questions about CP3? *Sorry no spoiler, forgot what the tag was for it and my brain is barely functioning.

So those two opening paragraphs from the article essentially sum up the way I felt about Chris. Phenomenal player, but without much success when considering all-time greats. Sharp closes with...

The person who defines how we remember Chris Paul is probably Blake Griffin.

Which I think very simply closes the way I feel about some of the all-time great PGs, Paul included. Regardless of how great a "pure" PG is, to have great success they almost always have to be bettered by someone else on the team (Malone to Stockton, Dirk to Kidd, Nash would've needed that huge offensive threat). I think we saw that in Game 1 of the Clippers-Rockets series. Paul is out, and Griffin just goes crazy (triple-double I believe). A player like Paul does so much right; defense, efficient consistent 20ppg, 10apg etc. At the end of the day though, points are the most important thing, and unless you're a fantastic scoring PG (Iverson's, Rose's, Westbrook's etc) it's hard seeing the more traditional PGs exploding and carrying a series like you do other positions.

So if we put Paul in place of Kobe on those title teams, I honestly only think the Lakers come away with the ?Sixers & Magic titles. I also sometimes find it very hard having CP3 being voted generally #3 over the last few years only behind LeBron & KD. Guess its a consistency vs. ceiling debate there.

My original line on Paul wasn't so much to dog him, besides his on the court attitude, as it was honestly me pondering how a player can be so good yet not really get the results with some pretty good teams. Clippers certainly didn't have a deep bench, but we are still talking about a presumed all-time great with a 3-1 lead on a very hit or miss Rockets team, and you can't close out the series? Like I said, I don't really know how I exactly feel about Paul. I guess if he is going to be considered an all-time great just like others we have criticized before him, as good as he has been, he obviously probably needs to be even a little better. It really is an interesting paradox.

Duskoy_sl · Jul 5, 2015

Well Aldridge goes to the Spurs... Even with Love back I don't see Cleveland being able to take on the Spurs in the Finals (if theh get there). That's assuming Parker plays like he has been and Duncan does not lose a step overnight. They extended Leonard and resigned Danny Green

Blitz · Jul 5, 2015

Duskoy_sl said:
Well Aldridge goes to the Spurs... Even with Love back I don't see Cleveland being able to take on the Spurs in the Finals (if theh get there). That's assuming Parker plays like he has been and Duncan does not lose a step overnight. They extended Leonard and resigned Danny Green

Barring a continued Whiteside explosion from the Heat, I think we are fairly comfortably looking at a Cavs-Spurs title game (sorry GS). I am curious at who the Spurs will have to end up letting go to take on LMA's contract, but I am assuming the star power will make up for a couple of lost rotational players. As far as a favorite, it's hard to go against Pop. Especially if Parker is healthy.

Kaines · Jul 5, 2015

Blitz_sl said:
Barring a continued Whiteside explosion from the Heat, I think we are fairly comfortably looking at a Cavs-Spurs title game (sorry GS). I am curious at who the Spurs will have to end up letting go to take on LMA's contract, but I am assuming the star power will make up for a couple of lost rotational players. As far as a favorite, it's hard to go against Pop. Especially if Parker is healthy.

The Spurs have plenty of room to sign LMA because they planned so well ahead last year and Leonard and Green were willing to take less then in order to get a big free agent, then sign long term deals after.

The Spurs started planning for today last fall, when they chose not to extend the contract of forward Kawhi Leonard. San Antonio took some risk that Leonard might look for a shorter offer sheet as a restricted free agent, but the trust built by the organization convinced Leonard to hang tight. That allowed the Spurs to head into this summer with Leonard's small cap hold ($7.2 million) on the books rather than the starting salary of the five-year maximum extension he agreed to Wednesday (still yet to be determined, but somewhere around $16 million).

San Antonio also took advantage of a small cap hold for wing Danny Green ($7.6 million), who also agreed to a new contract (four years, $45 million) that he won't sign until after the Spurs sign Aldridge. Trading Tiago Splitter's $8.5 million cleared more room under the cap.

NBA - Adding LaMarcus Aldridge makes the San Antonio Spurs top contenders

That's how you keep your powder dry. Are you paying attention, Cuban?

Blitz · Jul 5, 2015

All impressive stuff by the Spurs, but they are gonna lose Splitter, Belinelli, Baynes, and who I am most interested in, Cory Joseph. They can also fill in around the bench with vet minimum's so it won't probably be a huge loss, but its interesting.

Djay · Jul 5, 2015

The reason the Spurs always have a good bench is because they sign/draft guys that have a weakness they can fix (usually shooting, as they have one of the best shooting coaches in the league) and plug them in. It's not a coincidence or luck. Everyone would be raving about George Hill right now if he had stayed with the Spurs instead of being traded for Leonard. None of those bench guys are that good...it's similar to the effects of playing on the 2000s Suns or in an offense with Peyton Manning. You're not as good as the numbers make you look. Even with the numbers, I think every GM in the world would trade that pu pu platter for Aldridge.

popsicledeath · Jul 5, 2015

Benches are never as good as the credit we'll give them when the stars and starters win games, nor as bad as we'll pretend when blaming them for loses instead of the stars and starters. I definitely think they matter, but they're more a product of coaching than anything in the game, which is why we say the Spurs have a great bench. Really, when we say a team has a great bench, what we usually should be saying is they're well coached and part of winning franchises.

DickTrickle · Jul 5, 2015

On that note, I've always though Doc's inability to give some of his bench players minutes/trust, as well as developing younger players (going back to Boston), is something that is a big knock against him. That's definitely not something you see Poppovich doing. I mean, maybe they're just not that good sometimes but you at least need to be willing to give up some minutes to them (and maybe even lose some games) during the regular season so they can be a little better prepared and develop some-- top players, no matter how in shape, can only play so many minutes before fatigue kicks in (Clippers and Cavs demonstrated that in the playoffs).

Alex · Jul 5, 2015

The Warriors bench this past season was objectively great. Yes, I think Kerr is a legit coach, but the bench was strong by itself. The Warriors bench could be the starters for many other teams.

Slaythe · Jul 5, 2015

Alex_sl said:
The Warriors bench this past season was objectively great. Yes, I think Kerr is a legit coach, but the bench was strong by itself. The Warriors bench could be the starters for many other teams.

It can go both ways, I think. There are definitely coaching staffs that get the most out of their players. There are also teams with just legitimately deep squads. I think we short sell the Spurs by saying they just coach up guys. That's definitely true, but ignores how amazing their scouting department is.

Either way, it's a requirement to be a great team and honestly it's one of the most amazing things, to me at least, about LeBron in that he took two pretty awful teams overall to the finals. Really though, good teams need 8-10 man rotations and all of those guys need to produce. Do you get that from coaching or just talent? Like I said, I think it's probably a mix of both. Definitely needed though.

Pharazon · Jul 5, 2015

Seriously. Livingston, Barbosa, Iguodala, Lee, Speights / Ezeli is better than a number of the starting squads that were out there last year.

I long to see the Spurs in next years playoffs. I was honestly disappointed that the Clippers knocked them off because I want to see that series. Popovich vs. Kerr. It'll be even better though next year if we get to see it now that the W's are legitimate champs in their own right.

I don't think the Aldridge makes the Spurs shoe-in champs by any stretch. It'll be interesting to see how much of a willing passer Aldridge can become in that system, and whether Parker / Duncan can stay healthy.

zzeris · Jul 5, 2015

Slaythe_sl said:
Either way, it's a requirement to be a great team and honestlyit's one of the most amazing things, to me at least, about LeBron in that he took two pretty awful teams overall to the finals.Really though, good teams need 8-10 man rotations and all of those guys need to produce. Do you get that from coaching or just talent? Like I said, I think it's probably a mix of both. Definitely needed though.

The problem with Lebron is after taking these awful teams, then he wants to play GM and enforce large contracts for average players. That doesn't help get or keep good benches. "Lebron we tried to get a solid 10 deep group but your drama queen antics stopped us at 7 and the Plumlee brothers."

Slaythe · Jul 5, 2015

zzeris_sl said:
The problem with Lebron is after taking these awful teams, then he wants to play GM and enforce large contracts for average players. That doesn't help get or keep good benches. "Lebron we tried to get a solid 10 deep group but your drama queen antics stopped us at 7 and the Plumlee brothers."

They're over the cap no matter what. TT's contract impacts Gilbert's luxury tax and nothing else. The Cavs were never going to have cap flexibility paying Bron/Kyrie/Love.

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NBA 2015 Off-Season Thread

popsicledeath

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Slaythe

popsicledeath

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DickTrickle

Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler

Ambiturner

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popsicledeath

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popsicledeath

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Blitz

Duskoy_sl

shitlord

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Kaines

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Blitz

Djay

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popsicledeath

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DickTrickle

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Alex

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Pharazon

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zzeris

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Slaythe