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NBA 2017-2018 Season Thread
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yamikazo
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Because you knew Jordan would take the shot. He was a compulsive egotistical gambler who deeply believed in himself. There is no way Jordan would pass in that situation.
LeBron has four shooters ready to catch and shoot and he is happy to give any one of them the perfect pass for the game winning shot. You can't foul these days because you don't gamble that the refs will swallow their whistle or he'll LeChoke at the line. LeBron presents defenses with a game of chess not checkers.
Different eras and different skillsets. LeBron's stats shit all over Jordan's. Take off your rose-tinted glasses about "the best era in NBA history" when men were men and women were too because this isn't an honest conversation right now.
Jordan's played alongside Scotty for their entire primes. Even if Wade or Kyrie were better than Scotty, the chemistry and fit that Jordan had was some special sauce.
LeBron played alongside Kyrie for two years (2016 and 2017) when the kid was just 24 and 25 years old and their games aren't exactly complimentary (neither are their attitudes, because Kyrie demanded himself traded – it wasn't great chemistry or fit but they still won once and the other time went up against the Defensive POY (Draymond Green), the NBA's best SG (Klay), two-time MVP and best PG in the game (Steph), and MVP and best forward not named LeBron James (KD). Jordan never went up against a Warriors in their prime.
LeBron played alongside Wade for four years and Wade was washed up, old, slow, and inefficient. In those four years, they won two championships, miraculously laid an egg versus Dallas, and lost to the greatest dynasty since Jordan's Bulls (San Antonio).
Jordan played within a stable franchise under one system under one coach with the perfect Robin to his Batman for his entire career.
At the end of the day, none of the MJ or LeBron apologists here are going to convert anyone to the other cult. Love and appreciate the best guy to put on the uniform since Jordan, cry about all these young kids with the 3 point line and shot clock eras, or shit on the best guys because they don't fit your ideal because of bullshit reasons x, y, z.
LeBron and MJ are both gods in the Pantheon of basketball players and redefined their sport. Maybe Apollo is mightier Zeus, but we'll never know; appreciate greatness while it lasts, because in 20 years all the youths will be extolling the virtues of Poseidon.[/QUOTE]
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Gaige
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Brahma you totally ignoring coaches makes it 100% impossible to take you seriously.
Kerr turned the Warriors into Champions with the same players Mark Jackson was having 1st round flame outs with.
Brad Stevens has the Celtics winning with less talent than the Sixers because of his amazing coaching.
Kobe won titles with PJ and didn't do shit with Rudy, Mike Brown etc. He won again when PJ came back.
Look at the Spurs under Pop.
Elite coaches make a huge difference, period.
LeBron is better than Jordan now, and by the time he retires it won't even be a conversation. His 6 rings will be like Russell's 11 when comparing him to MJ.
LeBron makes every team he is on a contender, no matter the roster. Look at this year's Cavs from training camp to now. Look at who on their roster is still around from the 2016 title team.
It doesn't matter.
When he leaves, that team is then a lottery team.
Jordan left in 94 and Pippen and the Bulls didn't miss a step.
How can you lose the GOAT and be just as good?
You. Can't.
Kerr turned the Warriors into Champions with the same players Mark Jackson was having 1st round flame outs with.
Brad Stevens has the Celtics winning with less talent than the Sixers because of his amazing coaching.
Kobe won titles with PJ and didn't do shit with Rudy, Mike Brown etc. He won again when PJ came back.
Look at the Spurs under Pop.
Elite coaches make a huge difference, period.
LeBron is better than Jordan now, and by the time he retires it won't even be a conversation. His 6 rings will be like Russell's 11 when comparing him to MJ.
LeBron makes every team he is on a contender, no matter the roster. Look at this year's Cavs from training camp to now. Look at who on their roster is still around from the 2016 title team.
It doesn't matter.
When he leaves, that team is then a lottery team.
Jordan left in 94 and Pippen and the Bulls didn't miss a step.
How can you lose the GOAT and be just as good?
You. Can't.
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zzeris
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Wade was old and washed up? At 29? WTF are you smoking and can I have some? Two years removed from winning the scoring title? LBJ also chose not to play with his 'Robin' for their whole career. Career opportunist. The women are men line is laughable. As I said, they actually played defense which surprisingly(I know!) makes it harder to make buckets. Your whole narrative is that LBJ isn't as good because he was the one choosing his support system. Ok, that works. Point for you. Congrats. Chess not checkers? Lol, Horry and Kerr have some rings to show you. Yeah, they can count past 3 too.
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Brahma
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Like I said...Coaching is 5% of it. It's the NBA not NFL where coaching is huge. Pops is good...but if you think the Spurs were consistent because of Pops, you are sadly mistaken my friend. How many times during a game does coaching really matter? Three or four possessions? The system and philosophy matter, but not if you don't have the players. Not once was there a loss that you said Miami/Cavs were just outcoached, and that lost them the series. It was mostly Lebron playing magician and disappearing.
33 year old Lebron IS better now than Jordan at 33. I conceded that. That one is not in dispute here. But that I even chalk up to the eras and league changes.
Your argument that Lebron makes every team he was on a contender would be legit... BUT we will never know that with Jordan, because he didn't pussy out! They built a real team around him based upon the absolute certainty they needed X players around Jordan who was going nowhere. Not a bunch of Lebron hand picked mercenaries who he THINKS are good on one/two year contracts. This all comes around man.
You keep ignoring the fact that Lebron has lost twice as much as he has won championships. That really matters. Sorry man it does.
There is a reason so many people on this board are telling you Jordan > Lebron man. Even taking out the championships I would still give the edge to Jordan bro. Because he was just an unstoppable winner.
How about this. If you put Jordan on all those teams that Lebron lost...Do you think Jordan would be lets say over .500 in those championships? Pure fantasy to keep this discussion going, but just curious what you think. Even ONE more championship?
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Gaige
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LeBron is 3 and 5 in the Finals because:
07 - He was 22 he had no help and the Spurs crushed them.
11 - His fault.
14 - Spurs ran them off the floor by getting and staying hot from 3.
15 - Dellavadova was his starting PG against the Warriors.
17 - A 73 win super team added KD.
In more detail:
Last year he averaged a triple double in the Finals. You're blaming him? Okay Brahma.
15 - He was playing the Warriors with bench players playing 40+ mins with Love and Irving hurt. He also led BOTH teams in every statistical category and went 6 games anyway. You're blaming him?
14 - The Spurs got and stayed hot from 3. He led the Heat in every statistical category AGAIN. This after willing them to the Finals by playing the most minutes on the Heat during the regular season cuz Wade couldn't stay on the floor and losing Bosh to a groin injury.
11 - LeBron shrinked in the moment the ONLY time he was favored in the Finals and gave up a huge lead. His fault. His bad loss.
07 - 22 old LeBron vs TD and Pop in their prime. Worst Finals roster even taken to the Finals statically by LeBron.
Ya, LeBron is shit. Not to mention all the heroic and amazing series he had to play to get them to the Finals all those years.
Players move teams to win. That's the era we're in. You can't blame it on LeBron. Everyone does it. Boston started this Big 3 era and LeBron did what he had to do in order to compete and win.
This LeBron hand picking shit is what teams do for every player of his caliber. The Bulls went to Jordan when they added guys like Rodman and Harper etc. LeBron isn't the GM he doesn't hand pick shit, that narrative is old and tired.
If we switch LeBron and Jordan on those title teams MJ still loses but the Bulls still win. That's because all MJ does is score. Those teams leaned on LeBron for everything. Not only that MJ never played as the underdog. Ever. He was his era Warriors, LeBron is playing against them.
Also you saying coaching is 5% is asinine, look at the teams that have won since the fucking 80s. Halftime adjustments? Game to game adjustments in the playoffs? Matchup changes? It isn't about time outs and calling plays. Most of the coaching in the NBA happens before and after the games, not during. What about managing egos? That's PJ's claim to fame. You don't think he keeps KI on the same page and keeps them winning? Come on.
Also if rings matter Russell is the GOAT. 11 is more than 6. He was their star and their coach AND HE KEPT HALL OF FAME LAKER TEAMS FROM GETTING RINGS.
The best team Jordan played in the Finals was Utah and he was STILL FAVORED.
Get over it. Stats don't lie.
07 - He was 22 he had no help and the Spurs crushed them.
11 - His fault.
14 - Spurs ran them off the floor by getting and staying hot from 3.
15 - Dellavadova was his starting PG against the Warriors.
17 - A 73 win super team added KD.
In more detail:
Last year he averaged a triple double in the Finals. You're blaming him? Okay Brahma.
15 - He was playing the Warriors with bench players playing 40+ mins with Love and Irving hurt. He also led BOTH teams in every statistical category and went 6 games anyway. You're blaming him?
14 - The Spurs got and stayed hot from 3. He led the Heat in every statistical category AGAIN. This after willing them to the Finals by playing the most minutes on the Heat during the regular season cuz Wade couldn't stay on the floor and losing Bosh to a groin injury.
11 - LeBron shrinked in the moment the ONLY time he was favored in the Finals and gave up a huge lead. His fault. His bad loss.
07 - 22 old LeBron vs TD and Pop in their prime. Worst Finals roster even taken to the Finals statically by LeBron.
Ya, LeBron is shit. Not to mention all the heroic and amazing series he had to play to get them to the Finals all those years.
Players move teams to win. That's the era we're in. You can't blame it on LeBron. Everyone does it. Boston started this Big 3 era and LeBron did what he had to do in order to compete and win.
This LeBron hand picking shit is what teams do for every player of his caliber. The Bulls went to Jordan when they added guys like Rodman and Harper etc. LeBron isn't the GM he doesn't hand pick shit, that narrative is old and tired.
If we switch LeBron and Jordan on those title teams MJ still loses but the Bulls still win. That's because all MJ does is score. Those teams leaned on LeBron for everything. Not only that MJ never played as the underdog. Ever. He was his era Warriors, LeBron is playing against them.
Also you saying coaching is 5% is asinine, look at the teams that have won since the fucking 80s. Halftime adjustments? Game to game adjustments in the playoffs? Matchup changes? It isn't about time outs and calling plays. Most of the coaching in the NBA happens before and after the games, not during. What about managing egos? That's PJ's claim to fame. You don't think he keeps KI on the same page and keeps them winning? Come on.
Also if rings matter Russell is the GOAT. 11 is more than 6. He was their star and their coach AND HE KEPT HALL OF FAME LAKER TEAMS FROM GETTING RINGS.
The best team Jordan played in the Finals was Utah and he was STILL FAVORED.
Get over it. Stats don't lie.
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You forgot to put the necessary qualifiers on his wins.
13 - Bailed out by Ray Allen and the Spurs inability to secure one rebound for a title, else he would have lost in 6.
16 - Bailed out by the NBA league office after he whined to them, else he would have lost in 5.
Lebron is much closer to having a worse Finals record than he does vs. having a better one. 1-7 or 2-6 at this point could have easily been the reality. One convincing Finals win against a team against a team built around 22-24 year old stars.
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Gaige
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Ray Allen's shot didn't win game 6. It simply led to OT. Trying to turn a 7 game series into one play is silly. I can go through the game tape and find you numerous instances of them not even being in the Finals that year without LeBron doing something incredible. So let's not cherry pick one play as the reason a 7 game series was won.
In game 6 LeBron had a triple double of 32/11/10. LeBron hit a floater in OT to give the Heat a 101-100 lead which held until 1.9 left when Allen was fouled and hit two FTs to make it 103-101. Bosh blocked Danny Green's 3 attempt to seal the win.
So we could easily say they're not even close without LeBron's triple double. We can easily say without Bosh's offensive rebound Allen never even gets that shot attempt. Without LeBron's floater they never have a lead in OT. Without Bosh's block maybe Green hits a game winner.
Too much happens in 48 minutes to say "Ray Allen's shot won the Finals in 2014."
That's just game 6, LeBron dominated game 7 with like a 38 point night or something with 5 three pointers while Ray Allen went scoreless. I guess you forgot all that though eh?
I love the rhetoric surrounding Green's suspension. For 1 the dude let LeBron in his head and hit him in the fucking balls. The suspension was warranted. Even then the series is 3-2 after game 5. The Warriors, with Green, managed to not only lose game 6 but also game 7 AT HOME. That Finals loss is on Curry and Thompson. They no showed game 7 at home while Draymond played his heart out. No wonder Draymond called KD crying from the parking lot saying he needed his help against LeBron. One MVP wasn't enough.
Remind me how the Draymond suspension affected the games he played in? They didn't. Maybe he shouldn't be dirty?
Finals record is a team metric, not an individual one. Jerry West is 1-8, Elgin Baylor is 0-8, Larry Foust is 0-5, and even Magic and Kareem ended up barely above .500 with 5-4 and 6-4 respectively.
Championships are won by teams in the NBA. That's why only counting rings is silly as fuck. It's also why Jordan ring braggers are quick to never bring up Russel who almost doubled up MJ's ring total. Not to mention know who else has 6 rings and never lost a Finals? Scottie Pippen...
In game 6 LeBron had a triple double of 32/11/10. LeBron hit a floater in OT to give the Heat a 101-100 lead which held until 1.9 left when Allen was fouled and hit two FTs to make it 103-101. Bosh blocked Danny Green's 3 attempt to seal the win.
So we could easily say they're not even close without LeBron's triple double. We can easily say without Bosh's offensive rebound Allen never even gets that shot attempt. Without LeBron's floater they never have a lead in OT. Without Bosh's block maybe Green hits a game winner.
Too much happens in 48 minutes to say "Ray Allen's shot won the Finals in 2014."
That's just game 6, LeBron dominated game 7 with like a 38 point night or something with 5 three pointers while Ray Allen went scoreless. I guess you forgot all that though eh?
I love the rhetoric surrounding Green's suspension. For 1 the dude let LeBron in his head and hit him in the fucking balls. The suspension was warranted. Even then the series is 3-2 after game 5. The Warriors, with Green, managed to not only lose game 6 but also game 7 AT HOME. That Finals loss is on Curry and Thompson. They no showed game 7 at home while Draymond played his heart out. No wonder Draymond called KD crying from the parking lot saying he needed his help against LeBron. One MVP wasn't enough.
Remind me how the Draymond suspension affected the games he played in? They didn't. Maybe he shouldn't be dirty?
Finals record is a team metric, not an individual one. Jerry West is 1-8, Elgin Baylor is 0-8, Larry Foust is 0-5, and even Magic and Kareem ended up barely above .500 with 5-4 and 6-4 respectively.
Championships are won by teams in the NBA. That's why only counting rings is silly as fuck. It's also why Jordan ring braggers are quick to never bring up Russel who almost doubled up MJ's ring total. Not to mention know who else has 6 rings and never lost a Finals? Scottie Pippen...
Gaige
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Know how many times Wade played 70+ games during the Big 3's run? Zero. Know how many games he played in 2013-2014? 54. He missed 35% of the season. That's washed up and injury prone, not old. LeBron carried the holy fuck out of those Heat teams regular season and playoffs. While he disappeared in 2011, Wade was hurt big chunks of seasons afterward and it's why LeBron left. He went from averaging 30 a game to not even averaging 20 a game, to barely scoring 15 a game in the playoffs at the end of the Heat's run. Wade broke down, which sucks for a guy whose game is based on athleticism. He was playing less than 30 minutes a game at the end.
LeBron is better at 33 than Wade was at 30.
Pretty Much
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zzeris
King Turd of Shit Hill
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Gaige
,
not quoting your wall of text. No one says Wade was as good as Lebron at any point. Learn to READ. If stats don;t lie then 6-0 will always trump 3-5(6,7 however many he ends up with). 6-0 is already better than 3-5. Jordan was favored...because he was the GOAT. It's easy to understand really. Russell may be the GOAT. Lebron is definitely at least 3rd maybe lower. 5th? No one says Lebron is shit. He just isn't the GOAT. Never will be. He should ask for second place rings. Maybe fill his hand up then.
"Remind me how the Draymond suspension affected the games he played in? They didn't. Maybe he shouldn't be dirty? " Maybe Lebron should have chosen better teammates. He chose them after all. The guy that dumped Lebron? He won that last championship for him. KI won that last game...not Lebron. I give Lebron credit for 2 rings. Meh.
"Remind me how the Draymond suspension affected the games he played in? They didn't. Maybe he shouldn't be dirty? " Maybe Lebron should have chosen better teammates. He chose them after all. The guy that dumped Lebron? He won that last championship for him. KI won that last game...not Lebron. I give Lebron credit for 2 rings. Meh.
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yamikazo
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Do you understand the English language? Kobe passed these a couple times in his career, JaMarcus Russel threw some touchdowns, and even Shaq shot some 3 pointers.
Did you watch those teams?
Wade's postseason PER peaked at 29.4 (in 2010). Up through 2012, his playoff PER was at last 22 six times (including 26.3 and 22.0 during the first two seasons of the Heatles). After those first two years togther, Wade averaged a paltry 18.7 and 18.5 PER in the playoffs. Dude was no longer the same player, made worse by how everyone in the arena knew it but D-Wade himself. His postseason win shares declined from 3.7 and 3.1 (years 1 and 2 alongside LeBron) to 1.8 to 1.2 (years 3 and 4).
D-Wade won the scoring title in the 08-09 season. He had a few years of magic left after that, but father time caught up to Wade's knees and took away everything that made him special. Dude's body gave out as he was absolutely old and washed up.
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zzeris
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NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating | Basketball-Reference.com
The problem pro Lebron people have is that they forget the other side has access to the same stats. If looking at PER, Jordan is the GOAT. Let's go further. Wade's terrible, terrible 18.7 and 18.5 PER years were better than Pippen. Lebron played with a player whose PER is in the top 15 for his career. Scottie was at #115. Just guess where the other role players in Chicago were at. Pippen averaged 20 PPG in his best years. Explosive? My ass. Viable second option so only 3 guys covered MJ all the time? Guess so. Hell, the second trifecta had an older Pippen who only played 44 games his last year. I guess the Bulls must have lost that year...oh wait, Jordan not Lebron played with that team.
Lebron has to play with two other top guys. TWO. He's never won shit without a top tier supporting class. Not one superstar, but two are needed for LBJ to play on your team. It's widely know. Let's see where he ends up next year and add up who he plays with. Yeah....let's compare the talent LBJ surrounds himself to Jordan's using stats. Sounds like that will end well...for MJ as always.
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yamikazo
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Career playoff PER will tip into LeBron's favor after this season. Good argument though. You're comparing a guy whose career is over against a guy who is still playing at an MVP level.
Best PER post-seasons (ignoring 2017-2018)
1. LBJ - 37.39, MJ - 32.04
2. MJ - 31.67, LBJ - 31.11
3. LBJ - 30.34, MJ - 30.06
4. LBJ - 30.12, MJ - 29.90
5. LBJ - 29.98, MJ - 28.35
6. LBJ - 28.56, MJ - 28.06
7. LBJ - 28.12, MJ - 27.24
Assuming LeBron finishes this postseason without a drastic drop-off, of their respective 8th best playoff PER stats, Jordan might never "win" head-to-head.
Nice media circus. It's widely known? How many years has LeBron had two superstars on his teams? Kevin Love's been All-NBA 2nd team twice in his career. Chris Bosh was All-NBA 2nd team once. Hardly superstars.
Nothing in this debate always ends the same way unless you're committed to your conclusion before making your argument. I grew up in MJ's era. This era belongs to LeBron. An older era was Wilt's. They're all-time greats, each the best of their generation.
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