NFL 2020 Season: Gravy Edition!

Fuckers are tanking for Trevor Lawrence. I suspect Cam and Stidham have non-gameday injuries if they end up winning too much early on.

I'd expect players testing positive is far more a concern for coaches and staff with the team who are older and exponentially more at risk than the actual players themselves.

Ameraves said:

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I can't believe someone would actually claim to not know why.

taimaishoo said:

The reason things had to shut down is because hospitals would have become overrun with the critically sick (it's still happening even with shut downs). This puts not only critical covid patients at risk, but literally any other type of seriously injured/sick person because there is no way to treat that many people at once.

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Are these the same overrun hospitals that were furloughing employees and cutting hours, or the hospitals in NY that were so overwhelmed they didn't use the temporary infrastructure set up or the hospital ship sent for relief? Or are you talking about the hospitals that are "full" now because they opened back up to non-covid surgeries and services and that covid is actually not overwhelming them? And they're designed to flex shifts and beds as needed? You're making a pretty serious claim so I would love for you to clarify. I'm thinking you should have just stuck with the hypothetical aspect of your argument instead of claiming "it's happening now" since it would be much harder to disprove a hypothetical wouldn't have happened.

And shutting down was mandated to first slow the spread and then flatten the curve, which we did... Didn't we? do you think they meant that for 6 months of a year? Because I remember them talking it terms of weeks nor only a few months.

And even still, are you saying the NFL playing games it what would have broken the backs of the hospitals?

Interestingly, some people believe fear of Covid keeping sick people from going to the hospital may have cost more lives than Covid itself. Complicated stuff, but it's good to see you so sure about these things. When do you propose it'll be safe for the NFL to play games?

Merrith said:

I'd expect players testing positive is far more a concern for coaches and staff with the team who are older and exponentially more at risk than the actual players themselves.

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Definitely. So people with comorbidities or otherwise at high risk should definitely take precautions. What percent would be at high risk, and at what percent does that shift the burden from them taking precautions to shutting it all down? That seems to be the question, and for society as a whole, but I don't see anyone wanting to even address that equation.

popsicledeath said:

Definitely. So people with comorbidities or otherwise at high risk should definitely take precautions. What percent would be at high risk, and at what percent does that shift the burden from them taking precautions to shutting it all down? That seems to be the question, and for society as a whole, but I don't see anyone wanting to even address that equation.

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I thought they semi tried to address it at the start when deciding between suppression v. mitigation. Mitigation strategies would have basically had life go on as normal but have all the at risk people basically keep themselves away from everyone for awhile.

Granted, the small groups that are professional sports teams and staff/officials/etc have some scenarios where those potentially at risk wouldn't be able to do that, so I could completely understand older coaches/staff/referees/etc wanting testing and social distancing by players when away from the field to be adhered to.

popsicledeath said:

Are these the same overrun hospitals that were furloughing employees and cutting hours

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Yes. Med surg, pacu, preop, OR, etc. hours being cut has nothing to do with being able to care for critical patients. At my hospital, we have 4 different ICUs all of which are completely at capacity now, 80% of which are covid patients.

popsicledeath said:

Or are you talking about the hospitals that are "full" now because they opened back up to non-covid surgeries and services and that covid is actually not overwhelming them?

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This may be true in some areas, but overall that is simply not the case. The vast majority of non-elective surgeries do not end up in the ICU hence they aren't taking spots from the critically ill. As I stated above, all 4 of our ICUs are currently full. Just last week we had patients that spent 24+hrs in the ED hallways waiting for beds to open up.

popsicledeath said:

I'm thinking you should have just stuck with the hypothetical aspect of your argument instead of claiming "it's happening now" since it would be much harder to disprove a hypothetical wouldn't have happened.

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I'm thinking you should stick to talking about stuff you are actually familiar with, because it is happening now. I've literally witnessed it first hand every day at work for almost a month now.

popsicledeath said:

And shutting down was mandated to first slow the spread and then flatten the curve, which we did... Didn't we?

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Yes, we did. Then protests happened, bars opened, etc. and people refuse to wear masks so numbers spiked again. During the initial wave we ran 5 CRNAs and 2 anesthesiologists at night to cover the amount of tubings and codes (we usually run 2 CRNAs and 1 doc). We went back to regular staff for a total of 2.5 weeks before having to go back to the increased staffing and now most nights we end up with our call back there half of the night too.

popsicledeath said:

And even still, are you saying the NFL playing games it what would have broken the backs of the hospitals?

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I never said anything about playing or cancelling games. I simply said that if players feel they should sit out due to health concerns that I see no problem with it.

Merrith said:

I thought they semi tried to address it at the start when deciding between suppression v. mitigation. Mitigation strategies would have basically had life go on as normal but have all the at risk people basically keep themselves away from everyone for awhile.

Granted, the small groups that are professional sports teams and staff/officials/etc have some scenarios where those potentially at risk wouldn't be able to do that, so I could completely understand older coaches/staff/referees/etc wanting testing and social distancing by players when away from the field to be adhered to.

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From my perspective, it was kinda more like doctors and scientists started talking about strategies and politicians took over and based policy on the "if even one person dies" idea, which is a terrible position to base risk management. And of course the media just wanted chaos for clicks, and once the people get whipped into a "do something" environment everyone has to do something big, which usually results in over reaction.

Some sports may have needed to pause, but especially by now I don't believe there is any reason for the continued panic-driven atmosphere that seems to be driving large, high-profile industries.I

Sure, there are always people who couldn't participate socially or professionally, but I believe most people would be able to safely enough, especially in industries as rich and resourceful as the NFL or other large sports leagues. To me this is all just sports leagues bowing to the political and social chaos, not business or actual science or even medical experts.

taimaishoo said:

Yes. Med surg, pacu, preop, OR, etc. hours being cut has nothing to do with being able to care for critical patients. At my hospital, we have 4 different ICUs all of which are completely at capacity now, 80% of which are covid patients.

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It doesn't sound like your hospital is being overrun, though, even now, Even after months of gatherings and protests and what seems to be the prevailing attitude of people now where they'll play along with things like masks, but most of what I see is people just doing whatever they way anyhow. If hospitals were being overrun, which is what you said was happening, wouldn't we be hearing it on the news that seems desperate for such stories. I mean, maybe you should call them, because so far we've gotten stories about Texas (which hospital CEOs have said were BS) and some rural hospitals that might have to transfer the most critical patients because they don't have infrastructure (the same as they'd have to do for most medical 'events').

I mean, the story that nobody is reporting is that it seems our big 'surge' is in border states and states with large populations of illegal aliens.

But this is just going to keep veering more off topic than is probably appropriate for the NFL thread. We could continue in one of the Covid threads, if you wish. There is even one that isn't trolly, and for first-hand experience, which yours would be greatly appreciated in that thread I'm sure.

I never said anything about playing or cancelling games. I simply said that if players feel they should sit out due to health concerns that I see no problem with it.

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You also said hospitals were currently being overrun. Which, again, I don't believe that, nor do I believe you demonstrated that with your first hand account, but also again that's probably best left for one of the Corona threads and would be welcomed.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the sentiment that players should be allowed to sit out due to health concerns. It gets dicey if they're basing their concerns on medical advice or media hysteria, of course, but that's the precise approach I was saying should have happened on an individual and industry level, and imo should have been the macro response as well.

Some teams would maybe even be at a disadvantage because of it, which sucks, but so were plenty of other people in other industries. Individuals at high risk had to take measures that sucked that others didn't have to take. Grocery store workers were in an 'essential' position and kept working, and we didn't see the grocery industry suffer mass casualties. Studies now coming in that kids don't seem to actually be infecting anyone, so schools didn't need to be shut down, much less upcoming years canceled, again due perhaps more to media hysteria than medical advice.

To try to stay within the bounds of this thread, the point is the NFL and all sports leagues could have and maybe should have continued operation except for expected pauses to work out logistics and procedures.

I would even say there's an argument to be made that not only would keeping sports going not lead to the hospitals being overrun, but maybe if everything, especially entertainment and sports, weren't shuttered suddenly and severely, maybe people would not have gotten so antsy, frustrated and decided to go out protesting and having gatherings. Maybe sports could have been what kept the country sane and even safe, because people would at least still get to sit home and watch games and feel somewhat normal instead of sitting home with nothing to do until they broke and just said screw it and went out anyhow.

Instead of mass protesting and riots and endless virtue signalling from sports figures and leagues, we could have perhaps still had sports and some semblance of normalcy. Of course, that's just speculative fiction at this point, because here we are, sports are being canceled, and family gatherings are being reported and sick family members are suffering alone and concerts are being condemned... yet protesting and rioting seem to not only be allowed, but encouraged by the entitled, rich athletes and leagues that could have been the distraction we all needed, and the thing that helped bring the country together.

popsicledeath said:

I mean, maybe you should call them, because so far we've gotten stories about Texas (which hospital CEOs have said were BS)

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I'm actually in Texas and in my area it is not BS and there has been plenty of local/in state news coverage of it. I can't really speak to what is being said nationally.

I'm not sure how you would like me to demonstrate that my hospital isn't overrun if 4 ICUs being at capacity isn't enough proof for you. You're entitled to believe what you want though. I'll stick to discussing football related things in this thread from now on.

taimaishoo said:

I'm actually in Texas and in my area it is not BS and there has been plenty of local/in state news coverage of it. I can't really speak to what is being said nationally.

I'm not sure how you would like me to demonstrate that my hospital isn't overrun if 4 ICUs being at capacity isn't enough proof for you. You're entitled to believe what you want though.

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Would love to get more insight on this in one of the relevant threads where it would be more appropriate to respond.

taimaishoo said:

I'm actually in Texas and in my area it is not BS and there has been plenty of local/in state news coverage of it. I can't really speak to what is being said nationally.

I'm not sure how you would like me to demonstrate that my hospital isn't overrun if 4 ICUs being at capacity isn't enough proof for you. You're entitled to believe what you want though. I'll stick to discussing football related things in this thread from now on.

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The only region CURRENTLY reporting ZERO ICU beds available is on the border. Likely because of the illegals crossing over. So either you are there, and you're hospital is overrun with illegals, or your in another region that still has ICU capacity and you're just trying to cherry pick your own hospital as some Doom and Gloom example that we should accept as the way it is everywhere. Either way, your anecdotal evidence is shit.

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Kaines said:

The only region CURRENTLY reporting ZERO ICU beds available is on the border. Likely because of the illegals crossing over. So either you are there, and you're hospital is overrun with illegals, or your in another region that still has ICU capacity and you're just trying to cherry pick your own hospital as some Doom and Gloom example that we should accept as the way it is everywhere. Either way, your anecdotal evidence is shit.

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I am not on the border. We had to turn our PACU into a makeshift ICU unit. So yes, technically there are beds and vents available though they cannot be isolation patients since the area is one giant open room with only curtains seperating them. It is pretty much a replacement trauma ICU which is a covid only unit at this point. It cannot support cardiac ICU patients and I am fairly certain neuro ICU (I may be wrong about the latter). This was as of last Thursday.

My personal experience isn't a doom and gloom scenario. It is just an example of why the shut down was initially necessary to help prevent a mass overrunning of hospitals that were not equipped to handle that many critical patients at once.

Wait, so we had to shut down the entire economy, cancel school and force everyone possible into isolation so the hospitals wouldn't be overrun. And after months of mass protesting excused by Democrat politicians and even healthcare professionals, even more people got fed up with isolation and started to gather anyhow. More people than ever doing whatever they want, so much so states had to shut things down again. Because hospitals are now being overrun.

Oh, and by overrun I mean it's not a doom and gloom scenario, just had to shift some beds around and make a unit for Covid patients. And by hospitals I just mean my small locale; don't know about nationally. And if there are more Covid patients we'll just make more accommodations that may not be ideal, but that's the nature of the business in an emergent situation. and technically there are still need availabe. And if it becomes an emergency within an emergency every agency from county to feds are at the ready to help after months of preparing for hospitals to be overrun. And hospitals plan for emergent situations (one hopes). Thankfully it's not a doom and gloom situation.

But all the things the average citizen wants to do, like work and go to a beach and go fishing and enjoy sports can't be allowed because the word overrun is scary until explained, and sorry mass protesting and rioting is all the freedom we can allow without having to, like, expand our Covid unit.

You sure you just don't like having extra work?

Expand our covid unit is a nice way to cherry pick my words. Ignore that we no longer have space for anyone that requires isolation critical care or cardiac critical care (possibly neuro as well). We just 'expanded' our covid unit, which was never an actual unit to begin with.

There is no more shifting of beds, hence the reason we had people being care flighted out of a level 1 trauma center so they could receive care when we couldn't support it and sleeping in the ED hallways for 24hr+ periods. Keep in mind this was with restrictions on the state still after reopening, known medications that help keep people from progressing to vent status, and time for the hospital to plan for a second wave. None of that existed during the first wave. You guys seem to keep forgetting that my original point was that it was necessary to shut down during the first wave. It saved lives covid and non-covid related whether you want to believe it or not. Either way, I'm not changing your opinion so continuing to argue is futile and only serves to shit up the football thread.