Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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Hell, I am not even reading them. My keyboard is on auto pilot and sensing troll city.
10 Print "Brad's a con-artist. Agree/Disagree?"
20 Input A$
30 If A$="Agree" then goto 50
40 Print "You are a moron"
45 Goto 40
50 Print "Congratulations! You are not a moron"
55 End
Soygen
The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
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zombiewizardhawk
Potato del Grande
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Jesus christ, is Popsicle trying to make a resurgence and surpass Tardnoomba/Itzena for biggest asshat? I was actually considering responding to some of the idiotic things he's said but I completely lost motivation when I realized how many of them there were...
popsicledeath
Potato del Grande
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Thanks for the vote of confidence, Kettle.
You were going to respond, but, but, but... fuck you instead! Well played, sir. Well played indeed. If you had something to actually say, you'd say it instead of making a point that you're so fucking smart you're above saying it... about the thing everyone agrees nobody is reading, right?
Over-development is one of the things stiffing the genre. The reasons why EQ wasn't over-developed are an easy, fun thing to argue. Brad sucks. No Brad's a genius. etc. But it doesn't change the fact it was one of the few things they got right and allowed for emergent gameplay we no longer see because games are over-developed and they try to anticipate and plan and calculate for every last possibility, and then when players do something outside of those bounds self-conscious developers over-react by stopping it immediately. What you get is a game like Rift that had a ton of potential, but was beaten and scaled back to something the devs could predict, which as we can all agree is usually boring and shit.
So, yeah, 'working as intended' was a joke at the time, but in retrospect I wish a lot more current games would just work with the notion unforeseen gameplay will crop up, and isn't necessarily a bad thing, instead of immediately saying 'that is NOT working as intended' and starting banning people or nerfing shit not because it creates and imbalance, but simply because it wasn't intended and damn if the players are going to find their own ways to do shit.
Ironically, arguably the most fun aspects of Vanguard were also because the lack of oversight and eventual lack of dev support created another environment where over-development wasn't feasible. They weren't around to get pissy that players were 'breaking' the game by discovering new ways to do shit, and it was also for the better.
Designing and developing emergent gameplay has yet to be solved, but trying to design in controls that allow for creativity and emergent gameplay don't seem to be working very well. And whether ignorance or negligence, developers who back the fuck off and let players actually explore and get creative within a game isn't a bad thing, and imo shouldn't be lumped into a bunch of other justifiable reasons to vilify Brad or EQ or SOE or any other game/developer that shit the bed, but at least came across a few unintended benefits and insights modern design philosophy could certainly start using the make the genre less predictable and stale.
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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Good. You walked right into my trap. The dumbshits at SOE also did that with EQ and effectively nerfed necromancers into coffin carriers and mana batteries in the end game without an ability to land ANY of their damage spells in a raid up through PoP. And mages were turned into Summoning bitches in the same vein. They were so fucking clueless they broke two entire classes in the end game which remained broke as fuck for years. I have countless other examples during the life of EQ. Some justified, most not. When you break two classes with that long of a leveling curve? You done fucked up.
Yeah. And I'm a world champion dart player when someone puts a blind fold on me, forced a bottle of jack down my throat, waits 20 minutes, spins me around ten times, tells me to throw the dart and I hit the bullseye.
popsicledeath
Potato del Grande
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Oh, no, a trap! I'd better double down and pick an extreme that justifies my own bias and grind it into my keyboard in angst for the next decade!
Or, yeah, sometimes they fucked shit up, other times they didn't. Some classes got the shaft in certain settings, like raiding, some were powerful in others. I don't remember any class that didn't have something to bitch about at some point, or in some aspect of the game. I'd still take that design philosophy over shit like Rift where there were cool combinations and sometimes shit that was over powered, but over-reacting to forum whiners meant everything anyone complained about got treated like a game-threatening issue, anything unintended got treated as a bug, anything emergent got treated as an exploit, until the game turns into a predictable boring shitfest. At least EQ was always interesting, if not always fair to every single special snowflake.
But, taking the middle ground or looking for moderate solutions/analysis isn't nearly as exciting as railing against the entire industry at every chance. Even when it's warranted 90% of the time, that final 10% is just you being perpetually pissed off.
Honest question, Ut, at what point has any game dev or design ever lived up to your standards, expectations or hopes? What solution to design do you have in your own game design?
Or, yeah, sometimes they fucked shit up, other times they didn't. Some classes got the shaft in certain settings, like raiding, some were powerful in others. I don't remember any class that didn't have something to bitch about at some point, or in some aspect of the game. I'd still take that design philosophy over shit like Rift where there were cool combinations and sometimes shit that was over powered, but over-reacting to forum whiners meant everything anyone complained about got treated like a game-threatening issue, anything unintended got treated as a bug, anything emergent got treated as an exploit, until the game turns into a predictable boring shitfest. At least EQ was always interesting, if not always fair to every single special snowflake.
But, taking the middle ground or looking for moderate solutions/analysis isn't nearly as exciting as railing against the entire industry at every chance. Even when it's warranted 90% of the time, that final 10% is just you being perpetually pissed off.
Honest question, Ut, at what point has any game dev or design ever lived up to your standards, expectations or hopes? What solution to design do you have in your own game design?
zzeris
King Turd of Shit Hill
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Popsicle's garrulous and expansive replies are eloquent and mostly correct(in my sweet, sweet arrogance). That is... from what I could stomach. I do agree that new designers should look for the unintended consequences of lax game design by the EQ team of yore. Too much control is suffocating in any environment. I don't agree that they allowed it to happen so much. This is a team that took years to fix many of their bugs(if at all). Their normal solution was to just keep popping out expansions like they were welfare queens looking for a new paycheck. The level of support is comparable as well. This was SOE which had the worst CS in the business.
Ut's posts are golden as usual. I was enjoying grazing on a few choice nuggets of this Battle of the Titans until Wizardhawk came and shit up the thread(LOL). It was like seeing the retarded little cousin come in to view an epic chess match, yawn, and then shit in the middle of the board before falling asleep next to the toilet. Don't worry Wizardhawk. You still made me laugh, you worthless, lazy, sack of shit.
Ut's posts are golden as usual. I was enjoying grazing on a few choice nuggets of this Battle of the Titans until Wizardhawk came and shit up the thread(LOL). It was like seeing the retarded little cousin come in to view an epic chess match, yawn, and then shit in the middle of the board before falling asleep next to the toilet. Don't worry Wizardhawk. You still made me laugh, you worthless, lazy, sack of shit.
moonarchia
The Scientific Shitlord
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EQ was played because there were no other 1st person 3d MMORPGs at the time. As soon as a good one came out it went into the low maintenance low output spiral it has been sinking down ever since.
Much like getting kicked in the testicles, games like original EQ have a very small niche among the general populace. If they cared enough to rewrite the game using a modern engine and non-ass character models, and cleaned up the UI and kajillion different token systems, they would have a decent game these days. They added instancing and a lot of the perks of modern MMOs, but their code has been utter shit since the beginning. Apparently noone ever wrote comments, and all successive coders hacked everything on piecemeal.
Much like getting kicked in the testicles, games like original EQ have a very small niche among the general populace. If they cared enough to rewrite the game using a modern engine and non-ass character models, and cleaned up the UI and kajillion different token systems, they would have a decent game these days. They added instancing and a lot of the perks of modern MMOs, but their code has been utter shit since the beginning. Apparently noone ever wrote comments, and all successive coders hacked everything on piecemeal.
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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90% of the time it works every time.
Ken Levine
Alex Afraisiabi
Jeff Kaplan
David Cage
Jacob Minkoff
Neil Druckmann
Sefton Hill
Obviously a few Japanese guys too but I can't spell their names for shit on my iPhone as I type this so fuck that.
Other than that, the rest of your post is full of shit. And refuted. You just don't get it. Watching you post is like being a fly on the wall during a five hour meeting of Paul Sage leading a discussion on the definition of accessibility.
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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Popsicle, meet common sense. You should print this out, frame it, and put it next to a Rose, a pair of oakleys, and your Everquest poster signed with lipstick by Brad McQuaid.
popsicledeath
Potato del Grande
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Usually you're an asshole, but grounded in some semblance of begrudging fact as the root of your cynicism. At this point, I don't even think you know if we are disagreeing on anything substantive. I mean, instead of burying me with all the facts and inside info you normally bless us all with, you're actually pulling some Mist shit up in here: quote a very generic, banal post nobody would really disagree with and turning that into some awkward personal fucking name calling slap fight.
Paul Sage insults? Cutting deep, bro.
Lunis
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Wasn't alex the lead on the WoD expansion? And Kaplan jumped ship after Wotlk to work on Titan.
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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Ukerric
Bearded Ape
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There were no "ton of quite similar games". If you define EQ as "3D MMORPG", then you had exactly three in 1999: Meridian59, EQ and Asheron's Call. That's it. For the next two years, you can add Dark Age of Camelot in the US, and untranslated asian stuff that would be barely playable in the west (anyone remembers Priston Tale?). You had to wait until 2003 to get any real "tons of games", and well, that's not the era we're pining for here.
There were lots of other games to play in that era, sure. But "quite similar" is incorrect.
Soygen
The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
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Bitch, don't come into the greatest thread in the history of internet and come talking that trash.