Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Schneider

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Let's not forget the fraudulent demos that were created to convince Microsoft that their 30 million was money well spent.

""We gave demos to high-level Microsoft people frequently," he says early on, setting the tone for the balance of the interview. "These demos were often just dog-and-pony shows where content was created specifically for the demo. There was no intention that this content ever be used in game.""
 
Dullahan

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wilkxus said:
The game seems to be progressing nicely but will Patheon ever get big?

Even in the best case I agree with F Fordrynn and Dullahan Dullahan : never.
It will never be huge like Wow or even close to BDO. .
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WoW? No. BDO? Pantheon could easily surpass BDO. When I last played BDO a few months in, people in my guild were already starting to quit and the servers that were once overloaded were low population. That's the problem with a game with crappy character progression that relies heavily on item shops.
 
TJT

TJT

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kegkilla said:
Nah my stint on Agnarr ended a week after it began. I would be happy to check this game out if it does the impossible and ends up being a great game at launch. Thing is though, you need to do a fuck ton of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that will happen. How many MMOs have launched and attempted a sub model since WoW? Several dozen. How many of them are left? Zero. How many of those games had actual, legitimate game studios behind them? Quite a few. Who is working on Pantheon? Retards like Convo. What happened the last time Brad McQuaid tried to make a game on his own? Abject failure. Who calls the shots now that the company has accepted funding from accredited investors? The investors. What is the first thing that the investors will do when the game isn't getting them the return they want? Make it F2P.

Basically you have to ignore all the facts of reality and convince yourself that past performance means nothing from both an industry and personnel perspective to think that this game has a chance at success.
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I think a fundamental difference here is that during the Vanguard bullshit they truly thought they were going to compete with WoW out of the gate. Seems Brad has matured and is well aware that they are crafting a niche MMO to cater to a very specific audience.

That I can understand.
 
Q

qwertyqweqwertwqert

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He failed his last mmo, but he won his first mmo. So he is 50/50. And his win was a lot bigger than his failure imo.

TJT said:
I think a fundamental difference here is that during the Vanguard bullshit they truly thought they were going to compete with WoW out of the gate. Seems Brad has matured and is well aware that they are crafting a niche MMO to cater to a very specific audience.

That I can understand.
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Vanguard was never supposed to really compete, it was supposed to be an alternative to WoW for people who learned MMOs in WoW and wanted something that looked similar but was deeper. It did a great job of that imo, it just failed at getting enough budget to finish off. Pantheon is different, it wont have quest grind and it wont be WoW-ish in any way, it is deliberately for a different crowd.
 
Grim1

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kegkilla said:
can you name any current MMOs that are subsisting soley on subscription revenue other than WoW?
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Last I checked FFXIV was doing pretty well. You really didn't know that?

Some people claim it has more subs than WoW. I don't think anyone seriously believes that but it does have millions of paying subscribers and is extremely successful.
 
F

Fordrynn

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The survival game craze has bitten a chunk out of the MMO market - a market that was already a niche outside of WoW's unrepeatable success. There are also just a ton more games in general, from Destiny to League of Legends. I cant imagine a sub MMO capturing 10 million loyal players ever again, sadly.

I root for every western MMO to do well for a variety of reasons, even if I dont play any of them. I hope Pantheon thrives. I plan on giving it a fair shot.
 
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Endymion

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Grim1 said:
Last I checked FFXIV was doing pretty well. You really didn't know that?

Some people claim it has more subs than WoW. I don't think anyone seriously believes that but it does have millions of paying subscribers and is extremely successful.
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FFXIV definitely doesn't have millions of subs, let alone more subs than WoW. Whenever they throw out the "millions of players" number it's referring to total number of accounts, not paying accounts.
 
Rezz

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They're certainly making enough money somehow to keep paying better artists, better content designers, and better story writers than WoW has had since... well, ever. And they put all that stuff out at a clip that absolutely embarrasses WoW.

I balk at the multi-million player notes, but it certainly has 1m plus at this point, which is super high for a non-WoW sub game. I would wager it spiked dramatically (and will deflate equally dramatically in a month or two) for Stormblood release as well.
 
mkopec

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The point still stands that you can have a successful sub based game in this market if you make the game good/finished/compelling enough to play. It does not need to be a 1+m sub juggernaut either. And making this game old school EQ style of harsh non handhold, non easy mode, group focused content, is all the better since there isnt many games like it out there.
 
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Daidraco

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I personally like how Guild Wars 2 handles things. You pay for the game, then content updates while they are current, then expansions when they release. So if you started fresh, it was $50, season one 3-4 months later, season two in 3-4 months, season three in 3-4 month, expansion in place of season 4, rinse and repeat. Then a cash shop on top of that that isnt obtrusive to game play. Subscription model alone, $215. GW2 model, $145 with the option to buy shit that you actually want.
Takes into account the whales that would spend way more in the cash shop on cosmetic shit, little timmy and his ultra conservative friends that are tight with money and everyone else in between. Not to mention, if you quit, there is no second thought about playing when you're at the Credit Card stage. The whole pay plan seems to benefit players of all walks of life not only financially, but also.. content actually has to be worth a flying fuck or else no one will buy it.
 
V

Vinjin

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One can make this argument either way. I'm not suggesting the payment model is the sole reason people decide which games to play but it does certainly have an affect on the way said games are designed, which ultimately does influence that same decision. For example, if I'm looking for a new MMO to play because I'm bored, then I'm obviously much more likely to try a F2P/P2P than sub-based game. But once I start playing and become frustrated that player A can accomplish just as much as I can, if not moreso, simply by throwing more and more RL money at it, then I'm just as likely to stop playing the game altogether. I no longer see the point. At least not in an MMO.

And that last statement has a lot less to do with pure competition and more to do with the feeling that anything I've accomplished in game is significantly cheapened by the presence of a cash shop. It creates an uneven playing field.

A sub-based game by nature has a bigger barrier to entry compared to the F2P model but that can be mitigated through the use of promos, free trials, etc. The question is whether or not I give enough of a shit to invest my time in accomplishing anything in the game once I start. Plenty of people will try Pantheon even though it's a sub-based game and plenty will stay for awhile if the content is good enough to hook them. Plenty will also give up after a couple months as well but I've seen no evidence to suggest that the same doesn't happen with every F2P MMO out there as well so this point is moot.

Lastly, I think many people here have a pre-conceived notion of the amount a sub should be based on what they know from previous games. EQ, WoW, etc, were all released at a time when that model dominated the genre (many are still around today but that's for another debate). The price structures they came up with back then (I.e, $14.99/mo, $12.99/mo, etc) were simply a reflection of what the player was willing to pay back then. That's the precise nature of sales.

Now, with significantly higher standards by the player base and a seemingly infinite amount of other entertainment options available to play, who is to say that the price models will look exactly the same? VR obviously still needs to turn a profit and only they know what the minimum will have to be, but it's possible to see a slightly lower monthly sub in an effort to attract and keep the players that are willing to give it a try.
 
Arden

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I see F2P and mmo in the same sentence and my brain goes on autoignore like when I see articles claiming "with one weird trick" I can do blah blah blah.
 
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Daidraco

Daidraco

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You can have a cash shop and it not "ruin" the game. If we step outside of the MMO genre for a minute - Warframe had a great cash shop and it was its only source of income. You could get shit quicker, but 90% of the stuff on the cash shop was free. The only items that werent able to be obtained by just farming them were cosmetic items made by the player base.

There are a bunch of examples from other games where the cash shop has been done well. Where it relies solely on the content team pushing out shit that people actually "want". Key word, "want" because you dont "need" any of the shit to progress.
 
Arden

Arden

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Daidraco said:
You can have a cash shop and it not "ruin" the game. If we step outside of the MMO genre for a minute- Warframe had a great cash shop and it was its only source of income. You could get shit quicker, but 90% of the stuff on the cash shop was free. The only items that werent able to be obtained by just farming them were cosmetic items made by the player base.

There are a bunch of examples from other games where the cash shop has been done well. Where it relies solely on the content team pushing out shit that people actually "want". Key word, "want" because you dont "need" any of the shit to progress.
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You see, you nailed it right here.

This:
"If we step outside of the MMO genre for a minute"

Is required for this:
"You can have a cash shop and it not "ruin" the game."
 
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Fyff

Fyff

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Endymion said:
FFXIV definitely doesn't have millions of subs, let alone more subs than WoW. Whenever they throw out the "millions of players" number it's referring to total number of accounts, not paying accounts.
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XIVCensus - Player statistics for FFXIV

Half a million people currently playing. This is from before the expansion dropped. (the 464,000 number includes completing a story quest with a DoW class, I know a lot of people who only craft/gather). July 1st we should see how many people are playing with a bit better accuracy.

FF14 has a cash shop. It in no way affects the game. Same with WoW. The number of people I know running around with cash shop items in both games is staggering.
 
Arden

Arden

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Here's my take on cash shops-- and I'm a salty old DnD player, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it applies because fantasy mmos are fundamentally built around the old tabletop traditions.

If I'm sitting around the table with a group of friends rolling dice and DMing them through a campaign, and one of the characters happens to find a secret room with a +1 sword, none of the other players would bat an eyelash. They might be a little jealous of the guy who found it, but that's about it. Suppose instead, one of the players were to suddenly reach across the table and hand me (as the DM) a $20 bill and I said, "Ok Tom, thanks. You now have a +1 longsword in your inventory," everyone else at the table would be pretty fucking annoyed-- and rightfully so. The guy is getting a +1 sword either way, but in one scenario he is doing it within the context of the game and in the other scenario he's basically just bribing the DM.

That's what cash shops feel like to me. Maybe they don't to you, but like I said, I'm old and salty.
 
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mkopec

mkopec

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Arden said:
Here's my take on cash shops-- and I'm a salty old DnD player, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it applies because fantasy mmos are fundamentally built around the old tabletop traditions.

If I'm sitting around the table with a group of friends rolling dice and DMing them through a campaign, and one of the characters happens to find a secret room with a +1 sword, none of the other players would bat an eyelash. They might be a little jealous of the guy who found it, but that's about it. Suppose instead, one of the players were to suddenly reach across the table and hand me (as the DM) a $20 bill and I said, "Ok Tom, thanks. You now have a +1 longsword in your inventory," everyone else at the table would be pretty fucking annoyed-- and rightfully so. The guy is getting a +1 sword either way, but in one scenario he is doing it within the context of the game and in the other scenario he's basically just bribing the DM.

That's what cash shops feel like to me. Maybe they don't to you, but like I said, I'm old and salty.
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Most games dont have p2w cash shops bro. Its more like 2 people in your dnd found +1 swords but one hands you $20 to make his +1 sword bigger and gold color. Most cash shops are cosmetic shit that does not affect game at all.
 
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TJT

TJT

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Arden said:
Here's my take on cash shops-- and I'm a salty old DnD player, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it applies because fantasy mmos are fundamentally built around the old tabletop traditions.

If I'm sitting around the table with a group of friends rolling dice and DMing them through a campaign, and one of the characters happens to find a secret room with a +1 sword, none of the other players would bat an eyelash. They might be a little jealous of the guy who found it, but that's about it. Suppose instead, one of the players were to suddenly reach across the table and hand me (as the DM) a $20 bill and I said, "Ok Tom, thanks. You now have a +1 longsword in your inventory," everyone else at the table would be pretty fucking annoyed-- and rightfully so. The guy is getting a +1 sword either way, but in one scenario he is doing it within the context of the game and in the other scenario he's basically just bribing the DM.

That's what cash shops feel like to me. Maybe they don't to you, but like I said, I'm old and salty.
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Cosmetic item cash shop is totally fine for me. Skin yourself to oblviion for all I give a shit.

If you want to pay $3 for a 20% XP boost potion that lasts 3 hours that's fine too. I guess you can argue that its "pay to win" but you're only getting to the level cap faster. Not necessarily directly buying power, if you will.
 
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Nirgon

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Grats WoW and fast food chains on their riveting success.

I really don't care how many people eat at McD's or play WoW tbh. Good for them for catering to the masses.

I want my risk vs reward game that feels like a persistent world with it's community of pals, weirdos, enemies and "local celebs".

I know lots of pussies who play Dark Souls in offline mode too. I hope they enjoy their safe, bland experience.
 
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