Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Vinjin

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Daidraco said:
You can have a cash shop and it not "ruin" the game. If we step outside of the MMO genre for a minute - Warframe had a great cash shop and it was its only source of income. You could get shit quicker, but 90% of the stuff on the cash shop was free.
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So many things in this post I personally disagree with but only highlighting a few.


For starters, stepping outside the genre negates any debate already. Secondly, a cash shop ruins the game because of the very mindset you just stated, not in spite of it. Getting shit quicker through a cash shop versus through playing ruins the game. The ability to use RL cash on anything I "want, when I want it" ruins the game. Offering premium anything, even fucking wardrobe options, cheapens the game.

Why? Because it means that if I just want to skip ahead, I can. If the option is there, it means the best items or services, cosmetic or otherwise, are going to be there. It means, in some cases, the only means to get a particular item is to use RL currency. Otherwise, why have a fucking cash shop to begin with?

I maintain that one of the reasons why the genre is so dead is because of the widespread use of cash shops. It cheapens the experience to the point that people just don't care that much long term.
 
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Arden

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mkopec said:
Most games dont have p2w cash shops bro. Its more like 2 people in your dnd found +1 swords but one hands you $20 to make his +1 sword bigger and gold color. Most cash shops are cosmetic shit that does not affect game at all.
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Sure. I'll take your word for it. Seems to me that the line between "cosmetic" and "p2w" gets blurred really fast. Cash shops start out promising only cosmetic and then slowly but surely start slipping toward "gameplay affecting" and then eventually pay to win. After all, when cash shops are your primary source of revenue and you start realizing you are seriously limiting your revenue by limiting your products to cosmetics, you'd be fool not to start selling products people really want to buy. That situation creates a very real conflict of interest for the company, and profit wins out every time.

But like I said, I'll take your word for it. For me personally, I like the idea of keeping all items, cosmetic, gameplay affecting, etc. within the context of the game.
 
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mkopec

mkopec

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Vinjin said:
So many things in this post I personally disagree with but only highlighting a few.


For starters, stepping outside the genre negates any debate already. Secondly, a cash shop ruins the game because of the very mindset you just stated, not in spite of it. Getting shit quicker through a cash shop versus through playing ruins the game. The ability to use RL cash on anything I "want, when I want it" ruins the game. Offering premium anything, even fucking wardrobe options, cheapens the game.

Why? Because it means that if I just want to skip ahead, I can. If the option is there, it means the best items or services, cosmetic or otherwise, are going to be there. It means, in some cases, the only means to get a particular item is to use RL currency. Otherwise, why have a fucking cash shop to begin with?

I maintain that one of the reasons why the genre is so dead is because of the widespread use of cash shops. It cheapens the experience to the point that people just don't care that much long term.
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Good points and I agree. even if cash shop only sells vanity shit, its just less vanity shit that can drop in the game. It also takes away valuable dev time to come up with new and exciting cash shop merchandise, instead of focusing on game content.

I also agree with TJ about the exp pots. I forgot about those because not all games have them, but those that do its definitely a P2W vehicle. For money you advance quicker, therefor you get to the "meat" of the content quicker. Take a game like EQ, exp is the only vehicle that separates people from getting to places where all the good shit is. The faster yo get there, the faster you can monopolize the economy for those sweet sweet items.

But one can also argue that time in of itself is the determining factor in power creep, those with more time on their hands will gain more exp, so exp pots level the playing field for those that do not have as much time to commit to game.

Its definitely a complex issue and that is why I would rather everyone pay a set price and fuck off with cash shops. even playing field for all, game devs concentrate on game content rather than cash shop, etc...
 
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Koushirou

Koushirou

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I hate even having vanity items in cash shops. One of the parts of an MMO is looking cool to other players and having people look at cool shit you're wearing and wondering where you got that. You had to actually play the game and find those unique spawns/items/do harder content to get those better skins. Buy them off the cash shop and they just have no meaning. Usually leads to the better looking shit sitting in the cash shop instead of out in the world, too. Just another thing that takes away motivation to actually play the game.
 
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TJT

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Koushirou said:
I hate even having vanity items in cash shops. One of the parts of an MMO is looking cool to other players and having people look at cool shit you're wearing and wondering where you got that. You had to actually play the game and find those unique spawns/items/do harder content to get those better skins. Buy them off the cash shop and they just have no meaning. Usually leads to the better looking shit sitting in the cash shop instead of out in the world, too. Just another thing that takes away motivation to actually play the game.
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Very true its definitely a pros/cons thing. Through the lens of classic EQ. Since a lot of us are playing it right now. Not much of the classic stuff actually looked cool. But there are some iconic exceptions.
  • Lambent
  • Rubicite
  • EXE Axe
  • Soulfire
  • Crafted/Totemic had nice armor colors.
That being said, cosmetic stuff really didn't matter to me then and it doesn't now either. What I am on the hunt for mostly on Agnarr? Choice focus effects that give me more options. In Kunark it will be the key class spells that are out there.

In the modern era. Yeah cash shop skins will take away from dev time. Definitely a trade off.
 
Fyff

Fyff

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I could care less what other people have. If they are whales feeding a game it helps me. I like to earn what I have. I'm not 5, I don't care if my neighbor has more G I Joes.
 
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Vinjin

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TJT said:
Not much of the classic stuff actually looked cool. But there are some iconic exceptions.
  • Soulfire
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Great example here. Take that same classic EQ scenario but imagine if Verant/Sony had a cash shop and one of the items available for purchase was a cosmetic skin that added flames to your sword.

Tell me you wouldn't be pissed knowing that it cheapened your accomplishment of finishing the Paly epic and getting your Soulfire.

That's why even cosmetics can ruin the game.

Edit - I might be thinking of the Fiery Avenger but it still holds true regardless.
 
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Fordrynn

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Cosmetics are fine. Devs have bills to pay. That said, I dont think the cosmetics should ever approach the coolness factor of hard-to-obtain "epics".
 
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Vinjin

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I should've been more clear. I'm fine with cosmetics, just not through a cash shop.

Just make everything a drop in-game and make them tradeable so as to help create player economy using in-game currency, not RL currency. That's the model to use for a game like this.
 
Fight

Fight

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You guys are thinking about cosmetics in terms of the existing or normal armor slots. What if they had cosmetic only slots that you could buy and use, or never use because you don't care?

Example, World of Warcraft's vanity pets. They do nothing but follow you around. What if in Pantheon, you could only get a vanity pet through the cash shop? That is a completely different game mechanic than adding flames to your shitty sword you picked up in "Crushbone".
 
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Vinjin

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Fight said:
You guys are thinking about cosmetics in terms of the existing or normal armor slots. What if they had cosmetic only slots that you could buy and use, or never use because you don't care?

Example, World of Warcraft's vanity pets. They do nothing but follow you around. What if in Pantheon, you could only get a vanity pet through the cash shop? That is a completely different game mechanic than adding flames to your shitty sword you picked up in "Crushbone".
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I'd argue that if you're designing a cash shop just to sell vanity pets, that's a seriously low return feature that will still warrant dev time that could be spent elsewhere. The payoff just won't be there to make it worthwhile.

Maybe I'm wrong and the majority of the players out there love having a pet that does nothing but follow them around, but it's certainly not a feature that would entice me. I'd rather they focus on other, more impactful features.
 
wilkxus

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Dullahan said:
WoW? No. BDO? Pantheon could easily surpass BDO. When I last played BDO a few months in, people in my guild were already starting to quit and the servers that were once overloaded were low population. That's the problem with a game with crappy character progression that relies heavily on item shops.
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Not sustainable at all huh. Interesting, never played it here because I hate f2p cash shops and hope this MMORPG model dies a horrible death.

I would just like to have a viable alternative MMORPG besides McMMOs on the one hand and gimped/hacked to peices EQ classic on the other. I do not think the potential future for Pantheon looks as rosy or gloomy as some make it out to be though:
  • There will be no huge runaway success
  • but VR does have a fighting chance for a spot at the MMORPG trough
Reason I used BDO is the last time I looked the game was rumoured to be close to a million players/sales. I was under impression BDO was doing rather well and seem to have semi regular content upgrades/expansions to lure people back. Looking just a moment ago it seems BDO is quoting 3.4 Mil for EU+NA as of March 2017, 1 year in. No retention #s, but I do not see Pantheon getting anywhere near those sales 6 - 12 months in. The competition for attention is pretty fierce in gaming. You never know I suppose.

I would agree there is decent long term growth with decent retention potential for Pantheon compared to f2p cash crud. If VR does indeed stick to an EQ like game template with a grouping nature and challenge at the core of its design. The price/cost for that design is pace of growth though: even in the best case ( Pantheon happens to release as a great game) it will grow much slower than the easy McMMOs and sleazy f2ps.

Just for reference.
*BDO has sold more than 1 million copies
*BDO By the Numbers, Year 1 Complete - Black Desert Online - MMORPG.com
 
Daidraco

Daidraco

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Ive just always assumed that the cash shop had a different team altogether. A business within a business. Anything thats green lighted has to pass by the lead design, but its not affecting the man power in content creation. Or at least, thats how I would set it up when thinking about it like a business.
 
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Elidroth

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Daidraco said:
You can have a cash shop and it not "ruin" the game. If we step outside of the MMO genre for a minute - Warframe had a great cash shop and it was its only source of income. You could get shit quicker, but 90% of the stuff on the cash shop was free. The only items that werent able to be obtained by just farming them were cosmetic items made by the player base.

There are a bunch of examples from other games where the cash shop has been done well. Where it relies solely on the content team pushing out shit that people actually "want". Key word, "want" because you dont "need" any of the shit to progress.
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A cash shop doing well doesn't make it OK. As soon as you add a cash shop, developer attention gets taken away from making a good game, and starts to focus on "how do we get people to buy shit?"

I have a huge problem with that.. Management will try and tell you that's not the case, and to keep focused on making the best game you can, but then at EVERY FUCKING MONTHLY business meeting, the same questions come up.. "How can we increase item sales in the market?", or "Why are only X percent of our players buying things?", and so forth..

Cash shops almost always fuck up a good game somehow, either directly by selling power, or indirectly by taking dev resources away from making the actual game.
 
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Elidroth

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Daidraco said:
Ive just always assumed that the cash shop had a different team altogether. A business within a business. Anything thats green lighted has to pass by the lead design, but its not affecting the man power in content creation. Or at least, thats how I would set it up when thinking about it like a business.
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Dear god no.. As soon as you do that, your game is 100% fucked, because money wins over dev objection almost always. Ask me how I know..
 
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Tactician

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Path of Exile does cash shop pretty well, and that game seems to have plenty of good content that doesn't get neglected to make more fiery footprint effects. Although ARPG is different from MMO I spose
 
Daidraco

Daidraco

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Its not that anyone here is "for" a cash shop, we're just realistic about a game having one. Its extra income that is stupid for a developer to miss out on. Handling it properly is all you can really wish for.
 
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