Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Ukerric

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
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Vinjin said:
I'd argue that if you're designing a cash shop just to sell vanity pets, that's a seriously low return feature that will still warrant dev time that could be spent elsewhere. The payoff just won't be there to make it worthwhile.
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The presence of a cash shop is a given these days. The problem isn't a cash shop, it's what its effects on the game are.

That's kind of my original point. Maybe you're thinking your game is awesome, and the subscription money is going to keep you afloat for decades.

Then, one day (usually at the end of the first month, when your conversion rate of free first month to recurring sub craters), you realize it's not going to happen, and you have to get cash from somewhere else.

Either you've spent time designing a cash shop with minimal/no impact on gameplay, or you haven't. If you're scrambling to bolt a cash shop on top of a game where nothing was supposed to be gotten except thru game, you WILL have to sacrifice your original gameplay. Potentially adding P2W features.

So, a good risk management strategy is to design the cash shop from the beginning. Unless you don't care about the impact on the game anyway...
 
Reht

Reht

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BoozeCube said:
How many of you suckers are gonna cash shop some jboots?
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None, there was some discussion like two+ years ago that they wanted to remove them completely from the cash shop and pledges that may have had them and other "pay to winish" items. The current team were pretty much adamant against having them.
 
V

Vinjin

Lord Nagafen Raider
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From the VR website FAQ at Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen - Game - FAQs

PAYMENT MODEL
15.0 What is Pantheon's revenue model? Will the game be Pay to Play, Free to Play, Freemium, or What?
We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life.

So it will be either a traditional sub like EQ, WoW, etc, or a box sale+expansions approach like GW2 but either way, no cash shop.
 
V

Vinjin

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Ukerric said:
The presence of a cash shop is a given these days. The problem isn't a cash shop, it's what its effects on the game are.

That's kind of my original point. Maybe you're thinking your game is awesome, and the subscription money is going to keep you afloat for decades.

Then, one day (usually at the end of the first month, when your conversion rate of free first month to recurring sub craters), you realize it's not going to happen, and you have to get cash from somewhere else.

Either you've spent time designing a cash shop with minimal/no impact on gameplay, or you haven't. If you're scrambling to bolt a cash shop on top of a game where nothing was supposed to be gotten except thru game, you WILL have to sacrifice your original gameplay. Potentially adding P2W features.

So, a good risk management strategy is to design the cash shop from the beginning. Unless you don't care about the impact on the game anyway...
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I question how realistic this scenario is in today's industry. Seriously, if the dev team hasn't taken the time up front to do their due diligence and vette the best, most optimal long term revenue model for their MMO, then that game is a piece of shit and one you don't want to be playing anyway.
 
Sevens

Sevens

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The problem with cash shops in an MMO is that it takes away from the community
Instead of that cool new robe being a Tradeskill recipe its stuck in the CS for 15 bucks
Also, a few month back in a post Brad had actually stated that 10k subs would be enough to keep the lights on for the game. Not sure if he was still figuring on Volunteer work being the main back bone of the Dev team but still....15 bucks a month X 10k is 150K a month....not shabby if most of your work force is free
 
DickTrickle

DickTrickle

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Sevens said:
The problem with cash shops in an MMO is that it takes away from the community
Instead of that cool new robe being a Tradeskill recipe its stuck in the CS for 15 bucks
Also, a few month back in a post Brad had actually stated that 10k subs would be enough to keep the lights on for the game. Not sure if he was still figuring on Volunteer work being the main back bone of the Dev team but still....15 bucks a month X 10k is 150K a month....not shabby if most of your work force is free
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I doubt most people will work for free in perpetuity. I also don't believe everyone is currently working for free.
 
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Ashenor

Golden Knight of the Realm
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Ready for Pre Alpha, at least there has been some traction in the VIP forums on this and keeping things more updated.
 
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F

Fordrynn

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I hope the character abilities are not as redundant as they are in EQ2. We dont need 4 different melee attacks that all do near the same amount of damage all on different cooldowns. That said, no one wants sandwich combat either. Strike the balance!
 
Fight

Fight

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The problem with seemingly every MMO since EQ is that they cheapened the resource bar (mana, endurance) to a wack a mole game.

EQ, your mana was your life and it could go quickly. The abilities were both varied and impact. The number of spells you could memorize was limited, and took both thought and strategy. These days, every new level is a new abilities you have to spam as soon as the cool down is back up. Fuck that mindless bullshit.
 
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Xevy

Xevy

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Fight said:
The problem with seemingly every MMO since EQ is that they cheapened the resource bar (mana, endurance) to a wack a mole game.

EQ, your mana was your life and it could go quickly. The abilities were both varied and impact. The number of spells you could memorize was limited, and took both thought and strategy. These days, every new level is a new abilities you have to spam as soon as the cool down is back up. Fuck that mindless bullshit.
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Wildstar. Wildstar.
 
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Daidraco

Daidraco

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I dont think they'll openly come out and say anything thats going to cause conflict before the game has even launched. If they want to go the GW2 style of module purchases, Im all in though.
 
Q

qwertyqweqwertwqert

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It can be done without pay to win and succeed. Most of the MOBAs out there are entirely funded by selling cosmetic only stuff. You buy avatars that have unique graphics, animations, sound effects, etc. And various other things. They are significant enough to be worth spending money on, but they don't do anything to affect the gameplay. That's how it should be. I would prefer cosmetic stuff to be earned in game too in a perfect game, but I would give that up if everything else worked well.
 
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TJT

TJT

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Fight said:
The problem with seemingly every MMO since EQ is that they cheapened the resource bar (mana, endurance) to a wack a mole game.

EQ, your mana was your life and it could go quickly. The abilities were both varied and impact. The number of spells you could memorize was limited, and took both thought and strategy. These days, every new level is a new abilities you have to spam as soon as the cool down is back up. Fuck that mindless bullshit.
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Playing the TLP and eq for the first time in more than a decade makes this really refreshing. It isn't hard to get caught with your dick in your hand and have no Mana and the wrong spells memorized.

This leads to playing cautiously and thinking up escape plans and alternative strategies and approaches. Can I lull this to get the mob I want and conserve Mana? Should I use a lower lvl dot to kill more efficiently? And so on. All of which are really good for gameplay.

My coworker who only played modern MMOs doesn't share this mentality though. He thinks the idea of losing xp on death is too punishing. Walking back is punishment enough and death only serves as a way to tell you, "no can't do that" like a guardrail. But he wants a hard game world and otherwise looks forward to Pantheon. He refused to even try eq because graphics lol.

Real frustrating trying to get through to him on this.
 
wilkxus

wilkxus

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One needed to try it and feel the rewarding experience to get hooked. It is not about logic or explanations. Needed to die a few easy deaths, loose exp early when it was easy to get back, then *ding*! Once you got hooked, you remembered that rush. Everyone I knew that played got hooked like this. Nobody wanted to play because of graphics. Everyone I knew thought EQ looked like crap at the time.

  • suffer
  • suffer
  • suffer
  • win win win win ding! & feel that rush!
  • *feel good* with new spells, new skills going up etc.......
  • *whack in face* from that even con you thought you could take solo now....... ooops! back down a level for 2 hours
  • suffer....suffer....suffer etc.
  • learn frustration, learn caution, learn fear, learn to strategize

Sounds like shit but it worked well. By the time hell levels came around though you were psyched to ding after those slogs and loved hating them. Good points bringing up the strategy with simple gameplay mechanics.
  • Suffering forced you to plan and strategize (spells etc) (button mashing would mean death & kick in ass and wipe and cr)
  • Quiet time agonizing/medding between battles and heightened anticipation and let sense of fear grow.
  • Having shitty random groups early on helped this suffering effect happen often enough to instill a shared sense of reward.
  • Loosing corpses was the really scarry part and what made things feel really hard.
But anyhow, that was close to 20 years ago, the core design might be sound but the game is outdated and old as shit! Have some pity! I would not ask anyone today to suffer through playing EQ today. Unless you are trying to scare them off from playing an EQ like game lol.

The Pantheon team does have its work cut out for it. Pantheon will need to offer some new twists in gameplay mechanics to make noobs of everyone or risk feeling the same as every other Wow clone grind. It will need fresh AI, fresh FD mechanics, fresh pulling tricks to learn, different semi predictable pathing & tricky dispositions etc.... or else it will burn out and flop really fast with its nichey veteran MMO crowd.
 
Nirgon

Nirgon

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Will never forget my first derv camp group and them debating whether or not they should invite a dark race to the group.

Half the ogres and trolls I ran into RP talked.
 
A

a_skeleton_02

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Nirgon said:
Will never forget my first derv camp group and them debating whether or not they should invite a dark race to the group.

Half the ogres and trolls I ran into RP talked.
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Things we will never get back imo.

I remember not trusting trolls in HHP on my halfling.
 
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Dullahan

Dullahan

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wilkxus said:
Not sustainable at all huh. Interesting, never played it here because I hate f2p cash shops and hope this MMORPG model dies a horrible death.

I would just like to have a viable alternative MMORPG besides McMMOs on the one hand and gimped/hacked to peices EQ classic on the other. I do not think the potential future for Pantheon looks as rosy or gloomy as some make it out to be though:
  • There will be no huge runaway success
  • but VR does have a fighting chance for a spot at the MMORPG trough
Reason I used BDO is the last time I looked the game was rumoured to be close to a million players/sales. I was under impression BDO was doing rather well and seem to have semi regular content upgrades/expansions to lure people back. Looking just a moment ago it seems BDO is quoting 3.4 Mil for EU+NA as of March 2017, 1 year in. No retention #s, but I do not see Pantheon getting anywhere near those sales 6 - 12 months in. The competition for attention is pretty fierce in gaming. You never know I suppose.

I would agree there is decent long term growth with decent retention potential for Pantheon compared to f2p cash crud. If VR does indeed stick to an EQ like game template with a grouping nature and challenge at the core of its design. The price/cost for that design is pace of growth though: even in the best case ( Pantheon happens to release as a great game) it will grow much slower than the easy McMMOs and sleazy f2ps.

Just for reference.
*BDO has sold more than 1 million copies
*BDO By the Numbers, Year 1 Complete - Black Desert Online - MMORPG.com
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I don't think Pantheon will have anywhere near those numbers with box+sub model, but considering they've run sales with the game costing next to nothing (it was like $5 or $10 on steam last week), those numbers don't mean much. If Pantheon had 200k with box + sub, it would easily make them more money in a year than millions of boxes at $20 or less.

Either way, I agree. As long as the game launches stable with a decent amount of content and promises kept, they will not have to worry about profitability. That doesn't mean that success or even potential popularity is going to make people who want McMMOs (as you put it) suddenly enjoy a game that sends you to your bind naked.
 
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