Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,508
1,153
Using levels actually might require more dev work. Level based games have tons of content that sits unused because it is made obsolete by the linear nature of the progression.

Most of you also seem to hate the race to endgame mentality, well levels are a huge contributer to that because they let people skip huge amounts of content simply by grinding boars. The best path is almost always to just level as fast as possible.

Levels don't work well when the game is modeled on the idea of spending a few weeks at most leveling and then years at max. Levels make sense in a traditional rpg because the game ends shortly after or even before max level. And no an Asian grind level curve is not the answer.
 
shabushabu

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,411
187
Draegan_sl said:
I'm pretty sure Brad isn't going to jump in and make a game based on old ideas and just put a new skin on things. Giving someone millions of dollars doesn't help you with ideas. Just look at TESO.
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Well new ideas are not working for a niche set of people including me... Good lord if we see GW2 combat in this game, I am out so fast...
 
shabushabu

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,411
187
Creslin_sl said:
Using levels actually might require more dev work. Level based games have tons of content that sits unused because it is made obsolete by the linear nature of the progression.

Most of you also seem to hate the race to endgame mentality, well levels are a huge contributer to that because they let people skip huge amounts of content simply by grinding boars. The best path is almost always to just level as fast as possible.
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AAs, mentoring, multiple leveling paths, slow leveling, interesting classes and ALTs = problem solved.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
7,547
11,831
Quaid_sl said:
Popsicle... Dude... You have the reading comprehension of a potato.

Nowhere in that post did I mention zoneline camping. Also, I played a healer. Going afk for half an hour was not an option. I suppose you were a dps caster?

Edit: nvm, rogue. Makes sense.
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I misread you sitting at the zoneline waiting for a group as sitting at the zoneline with a group. But if we're going to start in on character-based insults, why the fuck was I having little trouble getting a group as a rogue and beastlord while you were apparently sitting for hours lfg as a healer? WTF were you doing wrong, dude?

Hell, it sounds like my pocket cleric I used just for buffs, resses and the occasionally duoing (fuck cleric was boring even two-boxing one!) would have less trouble getting groups than you make it sound.

Which makes me wonder. If you aren't getting groups for non-instance dungeons, how the hell is an instanced gear-check, speed-run mentality going to be any better. Seems like you'd still have to get groups. Maybe you'd just like it more because after the one or two runs you'd have an excuse to log instead of having to man-up and just tell the group you wanted to stop playing a fucking game?

Oh, I see you missed something too, in your own reading of my post! You clearly have the comprehension of a reading potato!
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
tad10_sl said:
Levels continue to be used in MMOs because they work. Probably EQN's worst idea was getting rid of levels. -_-

Levels allow players to
-Feel a sense of progression
-Easily identify others who are in an appropriate range to group with
-Easily identify mobs they can/can't tangle with.

No other type of progression option does these three things as well as levels. None. Zip. Zero. Indeed that's why you get shit like iLevels for gear, because levels make it easy for a designer to crap out gear.

If you don't use levels you have to get stupid and assign values to gear, abilities, etc and at the end of the day you just come up with a flatter leveling system (EQN's 5 tiers) that is really just a cheesy way of compressing what should be 50 levels into 5, so watch out for a ton of undercons when playing that game as a High-5 (level 50 equivalent) mob is going to beat the crap out of a Low-5 (Level 41 equivalent) player.

It's not about using your imagination it's about knowing what works and what doesn't and not trying to re-invent the wheel, when the wheel works just fucking fine.

Also Brad is not making a modern EQ - from the quest comment it sounds much more like a modern VG. I certainly hope he can bring a little bit more than that to the table (like the oft repeated request for mounted combat) but even if I'm totally wrong, and it is just a modern EQ with updated graphics and new lore, that still beats the Hell out of emu servers with their assorted GM/Administrator issues.
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As for your list of what levels allows you to do can easily be done in any other number of ways. It's not my fault you have no imagination. Zelda's progression system was accumulation of items and hearts. Zelda didn't have levels.

You don't even have to assign gear values for ilevel. What if you make a game where the majority of the gear was recognizable instead of just random text with stats attached to it? Recognize gear? There's your character power.

You just need to actually use your brain for once. You want the genre to move forward? You want an interesting game? That's how you do it.

Brad is making a game for a niche crowd, so he'll probably have all the normal tropes of Dungeons and Dragons so this argument is rather silly. You'll get what you want for sure.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
7,547
11,831
Creslin_sl said:
Level based games have tons of content that sits unused because it is made obsolete by the linear nature of the progression.
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Doesn't that same content also get trivialized in a non-levels game, like skill based? Or are you saying the entire game should scale to player power? Because that sounds like it would get pretty boring, to me.

Most of you also seem to hate the race to endgame mentality, well levels are a huge contributer to that because they let people skip huge amounts of content simply by grinding boars. The best path is almost always to just level as fast as possible.
Click to expand...
The first thing many people do in say a skill-based game is race to skill caps. People can skip huge amounts of content by simply jumping in a corner, swimming into a wall, or skilling up on unchallenging content. What's the difference?

Levels don't work well when the game is modeled on the idea of spending a few weeks at most leveling and then years at max.
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Then make a game that takes longer than a few weeks to level? And gives reasons to level new characters?

I guess my point is that levels vs. [what?] isn't the problem. People will do what they do. I'd rather they just focused on making it fun for the people who don't play by instantly firing up a spreadsheet to find the fastest way to gain what is perceived as the most power, whether it's levels or skills or gold or whatever.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
7,547
11,831
Draegan_sl said:
As for your list of what levels allows you to do can easily be done in any other number of ways. It's not my fault you have no imagination. Zelda's progression system was accumulation of items and hearts. Zelda didn't have levels.

You don't even have to assign gear values for ilevel. What if you make a game where the majority of the gear was recognizable instead of just random text with stats attached to it? Recognize gear? There's your character power.

You just need to actually use your brain for once. You want the genre to move forward? You want an interesting game? That's how you do it.

Brad is making a game for a niche crowd, so he'll probably have all the normal tropes of Dungeons and Dragons so this argument is rather silly. You'll get what you want for sure.
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Warrior LFG!

How many hearts do you have?

5/10.

Sorry, not interested. Need at least 7 hearts to do this content.


/scene

Shrug. Sub hearts for gear power for levels for overall skillups for whatever the relative measure of power is.

Yup. Wheel = not-reinvented. So I'd just rather they not focus too much on shit gamers are just going to warp with human nature anyhow.
 
Quaid

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,859
8,265
popsicledeath_sl said:
I misread you sitting at the zoneline waiting for a group as sitting at the zoneline with a group. But if we're going to start in on character-based insults, why the fuck was I having little trouble getting a group as a rogue and beastlord while you were apparently sitting for hours lfg as a healer? WTF were you doing wrong, dude?

Hell, it sounds like my pocket cleric I used just for buffs, resses and the occasionally duoing (fuck cleric was boring even two-boxing one!) would have less trouble getting groups than you make it sound.

Which makes me wonder. If you aren't getting groups for non-instance dungeons, how the hell is an instanced gear-check, speed-run mentality going to be any better. Seems like you'd still have to get groups. Maybe you'd just like it more because after the one or two runs you'd have an excuse to log instead of having to man-up and just tell the group you wanted to stop playing a fucking game?

Oh, I see you missed something too, in your own reading of my post! You clearly have the comprehension of a reading potato!
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I made the Mage comment before I read the rest of your post... I had stopped reading after you so thoroughly misinterpreted what I said in your opening paragraph.

Also, I was one of the top 10 clerics on my server for 5 years, at the bleeding edge of the raid scene for the whole time. I assure you, there was nothing I was doing wrong. If you claim you never waited long for groups, you are either straight up mistaken or have a horseshoe in your ass.

And since you have moved the argument into something it simply was not to prove some nonsensical point... I'm just gonna stop interacting with you.

Cheers
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
Draegan_sl said:
Brad is making a game for a niche crowd, so he'll probably have all the normal tropes of Dungeons and Dragons so this argument is rather silly. You'll get what you want for sure.
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As he should.. I don't think it's fair to ask him to reinvent the wheel when these big companies aren't setting the world on fire. I gave a few ideas in the past to enhance the outdoor dungeon design to really make the time spent creating them worth it. I'd rather he just focus on that.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
7,547
11,831
Quaid_sl said:
I made the Mage comment before I read the rest of your post... I had stopped reading after you so thoroughly misinterpreted what I said in your opening paragraph.

Also, I was one of the top 10 clerics on my server for 5 years, at the bleeding edge of the raid scene for the whole time. I assure you, there was nothing I was doing wrong. If you claim you never waited long for groups, you are either straight up mistaken or have a horseshoe in your ass.

And since you have moved the argument into something it simply was not to prove some nonsensical point... I'm just gonna stop interacting with you.

Cheers
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Your e-peen was probably bigger than mine. I raided and shit, but focused on having fun with friends, not killing shit that wasn't actually real. That meant when I couldn't find a group, I found something else fun to do (usually in game, but not always). I didn't sit at one zone-line lfg for that zone, because that sounds pretty fucking boring. We did a lot of fear kiting, resist-based content, groups of 4 rogues and a bard... shit a bit further outside the box than spamming lfg alone at a zoneline and a decade later declaring a game mechanic shit.

You're really seem upset and agitated the last few days. Wanna talk about it?
 
Quineloe

Quineloe

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,978
4,464
Meridian59, one of the very first MMORPG, also didn't have levels. You sure as hell felt progression there.
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
Aradune_sl said:
We have some 'modern' ideas, one of which I really like. But I'm not going to get into it until we have it implemented in-game so we can really try it out. If we don't end up liking it, there's plenty of tried and true mechanics we can fall back on.
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Btw this was in reference to Flip asking about in grinding in regards to progression... so it's not like they arnt going to try some stuff with grouping.
 
Quaid

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,859
8,265
Convo_sl said:
As he should.. I don't think it's fair to ask him to reinvent the wheel when these big companies aren't setting the world on fire. I gave a few ideas in the past to enhance the outdoor dungeon design to really make the time spent creating them worth it. I'd rather he just focus on that.
Click to expand...
I really like your idea of conditions changing making the dungeon itself change. Maybe if the zone detects that there are a certain number of players in it, THE HIGH SHAMAN spawns and zonewide haste buffs all mobs... Or spawns a 'reserve' force to deal with us intruders.

The possibilities for uninstanced dungeons with dynamic spawn mechanics are pretty interesting. GW2 has proven the tech is there for it.
 
M

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
Draegan_sl said:
I'm pretty sure Brad isn't going to jump in and make a game based on old ideas and just put a new skin on things. Giving someone millions of dollars doesn't help you with ideas. Just look at TESO.
Click to expand...
If this is what you think, I'm not sure your paying attention. I think this isexactlywhat he is doing. But again, I can't speak for Brad. I may be wrong.
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
Quaid_sl said:
I really like your idea of conditions changing making the dungeon itself change. Maybe if the zone detects that there are a certain number of players in it, THE HIGH SHAMAN spawns and zonewide haste buffs all mobs... Or spawns a 'reserve' force to deal with us intruders.

The possibilities for uninstanced dungeons with dynamic spawn mechanics are pretty interesting. GW2 has proven the tech is there for it.
Click to expand...
It makes so much sense to have the dungeons react when certain conditions are met. The one you referenced above and also when the dungeon becomes barren with activity. Allow it grow from within and level to a high group zone or raid. No reason to waste all that time spent designing them to leave them behind.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Merlin_sl said:
If this is what you think, I'm not sure your paying attention. I think this isexactlywhat he is doing. But again, I can't speak for Brad. I may be wrong.
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Read the post from Convo two above yours. They have some new ideas supposedly they want to test out. So you're wrong?
 
Quaid

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,859
8,265
Merlin_sl said:
Wait a minute. You were a cleric and couldn't find a group? WTF?
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Well, to be honest, the group issue arose more on my druid... I mentioned the cleric stuff to back up my healing ability. My cleric was insta grouped almost as soon as I logged in.
 
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