Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

I will be fine with or without the mini maps,but being directionally impaired, I always had to pick up one of those compasses to get around,lol! As long as I can have a compass, I should be fine.

mhoward48_sl said:

I still say EQ had the best quests of any MMO I have ever played. Yes, some were even too challenging! I guess I like a challenge, instead of things just handed to me.

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It would be great if EQs version of challenging didnt just mean that you make a bunch of contested content and then have to race/poopsock other players for it. From a mechanics perspective tho all that content was far easier than endgame content in any modern mmo.

NativityInBlack_sl said:

That's easy... my favorite WoW dungeon was from the time they were still trying to copy EQ.

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Yea Blackrock was a good one. Imagine it without instancing, the entire Blackrock mountain as one dungeon. Imo that would stand right beside any EQ dungeon without needing to hide.

tad10_sl said:

You are like the third person in the past ten pages to use the "tired" or "lazy" description for levels. I'm pretty confident none of you have actually thought it through, take your LFG example. I'm a level 20 BST I go to Kurn's Tower because I know it's in my level range. There I can hang out looking for a group and I know other people there are going to be in my level range and if I start sending tells saying where I am they'll also know roughly what level I am.

Levels are simple and clean. These are positive attributes when MMORPGS are otherwise very complex and murky.

Skill system instead of leveling system? You just get a FOTM.
Gear system instead of leveling system? It's MTG and you get the expansion problem identified above.

The other nice feature of a standard leveling system is that it mixes well with horizontal systems like AA's or EQ skills as Quaid mentioned.

I'm convinced that it is WoW's race to the endgame bullshit that has you guys down on leveling. That's WoW's problem, not the leveling system.

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I think this game is better served with levels, but I agree with others that levels are played out and the quick'n'easy path. You yourself basically say their main function is to identify the content that you can or cannot deal with quickly. Levels are the gps mini map on the macro level.

For a level-less game that works, lok at EVE. And if SOE does their job well EQN will shine because of it, too. But like I said, it's not for Pantheon and they are better served going with the (boring) tried and true level system. That said, I hope levels are much flatter in what areas make sense for you to do (and can be done while still getting xp). What I disliked in EQ and WoW was the artificial hit penalties against higher levels. Those monsters have more hitpoints and stronger attacks, it's unlikely that lower levels can kill them as is. Hopefully the game does not come with such a "you must be this tall to attack the griffon" requirement. Instead let me pull the griffon and find out, I'll learn my lesson. Ironically people beg for undercons to teach them that lesson instead.

And going back a dozen pages to the pricing structure, I think putting alpha at more then $100 would not be a good idea. Depending on how you formulate the details you dont have to let every alpha buyer in at the same time, but the kickstarter is their only and most important PR, it should tell the majority of interested people that they can be part of it early. You want to hook people in with a bearable price tag. Especially if they go with a sub before release, that's not gonna go down well as is.

I think it'd be cool to have a rough map that does not show your position and only shows major landmarks. A cartography type skill could be added that (as you explore the zone or visit landmarks) shows your position on the map with increasing accuracy. It makes players learn the area by exploring and learning landmarks and generally "being in the world" like EQ, and gives them better tools later on to deal with specific challenges (like finding some remote npc/camp/dungeon). Not this GPS/radar/googlemaps deal we have these days which has people playing the interface rather than the game.

Sidenote: someone's already creating a subreddit:Pantheon: Rise of the Fallenbit spare still but should become more useful over time.

non instanced dungeons wouldn't really have worked that well in WoW on PVE servers due to the 2 faction split. That garbage ruins PVE games, and entire games when the developers decide to drop the whole thing, which they pretty much did in WoW (arena fights alliance vs alliance, shared cities like Dalaran)

Lambourne_sl said:

I think it'd be cool to have a rough map that does not show your position and only shows major landmarks. A cartography type skill could be added that (as you explore the zone or visit landmarks) shows your position on the map with increasing accuracy. It makes players learn the area by exploring and learning landmarks and generally "being in the world" like EQ, and gives them better tools later on to deal with specific challenges (like finding some remote npc/camp/dungeon). Not this GPS/radar/googlemaps deal we have these days which has people playing the interface rather than the game.

Sidenote: someone's already creating a subreddit:Pantheon: Rise of the Fallenbit spare still but should become more useful over time.

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I don't want a GPS map "you are here" ever again, not even with a skill. Cartography as a trade skill does sound nice, and you could sell maps of areas to players, but I have no idea how to make that actually work.

I agree, levels work!!!

Itzena_sl said:

Of course there's going to be a hissy fit - what Tard and the restactuallywant is for it to be 1999 again. Not just 1999-era design, they want this to be their first MMO, no spoilers, nobody knowing what they're doing, everything hidden, and so on.

They want the impossible, and will bitch when it doesn't happen.

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I have played modern MMOs without using online guides... all of them ... and they all have sucked anyway.

Don't listen to itzena... He's a bad troll and always was... Regardless of what people want Brad mentioned it would be a modern game.. But I don't think people are being unreasonable when they ask to keep the modern mmo convenience features to a minimal.. Especially when they are posting ideas that replace those features to make the game more "immersive." Ie.. No mini map/gps bullshit.. Solution map making tradeskill.

My question is... What if it is a game much like 99 EQ? What "modern" features do you think need to be there in order for you to donate? I can't think of many I require... Hmm..GPS map? No... Auction house? No... Instance content? No.. Quest hubs?! Lol So what are those can't live without features?? Maybe a lfg tool??

Convo_sl said:

Draegan won't admit it but he's moved a bit in his position in regard to neckbeard philsopspy. He's just trying to think outside the box and advance the genre.. It's funny he said Tad has no imagination tho: I used to accuse him of the same thing: lol.. Draegan that is..

Just think it's unfair that people want to make this long awaited messiah of a game more like the last 10 years. We've been hoping and praying for so long. So ill graciously say gtfo with all these modern convenience ideas.

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It's all about context. This game is aiming for a niche crowd so the standard tropes of Aaa MMO design kind of get thrown out the window.

When I get on my laptop I'll read and reply to tags giant post.

Convo_sl said:

Don't listen to itzena... He's a bad troll and always was... Regardless of what people want Brad mentioned it would be a modern game.. But I don't think people are being unreasonable when they ask to keep the modern mmo convenience features to a minimal.. Especially when they are posting ideas that replace those features to make the game more "immersive." Ie.. No mini map/gps bullshit.. Solution map making tradeskill.

My question is... What if it is a game much like 99 EQ? What "modern" features do you think need to be there in order for you to donate? I can't think of many I require... Hmm..GPS map? No... Auction house? No... Instance content? No.. Quest hubs?! Lol So what are those can't live without features?? Maybe a lfg tool??

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if those features were not included i would still be interested in the game as long as it is group focused.. however i don't mind a minimap ( i just turn it off anyway ), I like auction houses, don't care if there are Instances although I do want to see contested mobs ( especially raid )... F the LFG tool unless its done like DDO.

gogojira_sl said:

Pretty much. Let the big studios trying to clobber it out with a $300 million budget try to advance the genre in 500 different ways, 450 of which don't stand a chance. Pantheon is, and needs to be, a very focused experience with a razor sharp scope. There's a lot of things a lot of people wouldliketo see, but the important part is locking in which featuresneedto be in the game and staying within those boundaries. Feature bloat is a terrible idea and honestly, I think things like mounted combat should be completely tossed to the side for an indefinite amount of time because I just don't see why it matters for Pantheon.

The team will definitely go for the Kickstarter+ route for funding with this game, especially if it's on a three-year-development track. Let the Kickstarter spring the project forward and offer additional crowdfunding options all along the way of development. Eventually some level of access to the game can be an option when the team is comfortable letting people in the gates.

I'm more excited for Pantheon than anything else in development even if it's just a series of concepts at this point. Maybe it's me being naive or maybe it's because the MMO industry has evolved in such a way that it just doesn't appeal to me anymore. Truthfully, the only MMO I've ever been hardcore into was the original EQ. Everything else since that time has been mild, temporary distractions for me while I play all the other awesome shit hitting consoles and PC every month.

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300M dollar games are probably going to be the games that do the least amount of different things. See Wildstar.

Tauro_sl said:

Draegan,

are you considering a sub-forum once the KS starts? Could get too messy just using 1 thread discussing all the info...

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Sub forums are for released games. I have to figure out what to do with the ffxiv one.

Regional auction houses together with "slow" traveling (no afk taxi all over the world, no insta-bindstone-porting, etc...) plz!

zzeris_sl said:

Etchazz, usually I don't talk with you because you make moronic posts like this but why not today? Of course comparing one form of entertainment that just primarily uses your eyes to games is so very similar. In fact, why don't you respond with just your eyes since you could be using a tablet. Since tablets play games, this must be just like watching a movie.

Here's some movie progression for you.History of film - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. See any changes or updates? Probably not but your eyes aren't the primary problem are they? Since, you watch all movies the same, they must be all alike right? Same stories, same progression of stories, same everything right? Because your eyes watch from start to finish right? Everything must be the same. I'm sure the film industry is right now trying their best to keep movies just like they were 15 years ago...because movies and games are just alike.

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once again, you show your stupidity. all movies, at their core, are the same. there is a plot with a beginning (the set up), a climax (the confrontation), and an ending (the resolution). everything else in terms of this argument is irrelevant. stories can be about whatever you want, but they all have this same structure. even a movie like "pulp fiction" which is chopped up, is still set up the same way. what you don't understand (because you're a mindless fuck wit) is that the same is true about leveling. when idiots like you cry like bitches about levels, what you don't have the brain capacity to comprehend is that however you set it up, there are still levels. unless you start at the very beginning of the game being able to do anything, go anywhere, and have every skill, power, spell, item, etc... at your disposal, then there are levels and a progression. now since people like you don't have the IQ that god gave a slug, you think that a game which doesn't have the typical DnD levels is "level-less", but what you fail to realize is that any game in which you progress your character as you play, you are in fact "leveling up." so if you're going to have levels, you might as well go with the tried and true levels that DnD implemented 40 years ago (which is still the best way).

Draegan_sl said:

300M dollar games are probably going to be the games that do the least amount of different things. See Wildstar.

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man.. I stopped following Wildstar but are they really burning a lot of cash on it?

etchazz_sl said:

once again, you show your stupidity. all movies, at their core, are the same. there is a plot with a beginning (the set up), a climax (the confrontation), and an ending (the resolution). everything else in terms of this argument is irrelevant. stories can be about whatever you want, but they all have this same structure. even a movie like "pulp fiction" which is chopped up, is still set up the same way. what you don't understand (because you're a mindless fuck wit) is that the same is true about leveling. when idiots like you cry like bitches about levels, what you don't have the brain capacity to comprehend is that however you set it up, there are still levels. unless you start at the very beginning of the game being able to do anything, go anywhere, and have every skill, power, spell, item, etc... at your disposal, then there are levels and a progression. now since people like you don't have the IQ that god gave a slug, you think that a game which doesn't have the typical DnD levels is "level-less", but what you fail to realize is that any game in which you progress your character as you play, you are in fact "leveling up." so if you're going to have levels, you might as well go with the tried and true levels that DnD implemented 40 years ago (which is still the best way).

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So dnd levels are the best way because you said so, got it.

Creslin_sl said:

So dnd levels are the best way because you said so, got it.

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Nobody has made a compelling argument in support of traditional vertical progression. There's been a lot of 'it should be this way because I think so'.

The players of EVE online, the only MMO with a steadily increasing population, disagree with them. Even EverQuest implemented horizontal progression through AAs (almost universally loved) a decade ago.