Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Aradune_sl said:

Hey guys, there's a design idea and issue that we're debating, and we'd really like your feedback.

Ok, so Pantheon is about a huge, interesting open world to explore. We don't want people teleporting all over the place, missing out on content and the grandeur of Terminus.

So far we've said that there will be some opportunities to teleport to some locations as long as you've travelled there before without teleporting. Kind of like the Velious teleports.

We've also said that if you're at the entrance to a dungeon, a group within that dungeon can teleport you to them (likely a spell shared by some classes).

But from a design and philosophical standpoint, huge open world to explore and teleports/quick travel seem mutually exclusive to many who are interested in Pantheon.

So what about an elaborate LFG system? A dungeon finder? Someway to quickly travel to adventure areas where other people have already gathered and are trying to form groups?

it's anti-exploration, but it's pro-grouping. And exploration and grouping are both two major components of what makes Pantheon the game we're so excited to be working on.

So how can we strike a balance here? How do we offer game mechanics that are focused on people finding groups, making friends, eventually guilds, etc., but not shrink the world by allowing people to port all over the place? Where do we draw a line in the sand? Is finding groups and making friends more important or less important than a vast open world to explore, where taking the time to travel to an exotic and distant location gives you a great sense of accomplishment?

Pantheon already has a strong Vision(TM) behind it. We are wrapping up the high level design documents. The team is ideologically on the same page and agree with our goals and tenets. With probably one exception, the one I'm bringing up here. We go back and forth on it. Heck, I can argue either side just as convincingly.

So what do you guys think? Where is the balance? What tenet takes priority over the other?

When I said the community would be more involved with Pantheon than any of the other games we've worked on, I meant it. I love doing interviews and chats and videos. I really enjoy answering future players' questions. But this issue is turning out to be a tough one and we could really use your help and feedback.

Thanks in advance!

Click to expand...

Brad, as a player who doesn't like the idea of every player just clicking stones to TP around the world, I'll try to answer this with an open mind. I have a few ideas, but first, a few comments.

#1: You can always add TP stones or whatever in post-launch, but it would be hard to take them away. But I don't think they'll be necessary.

#2: I think it's important for players to understand how the world is designed and how zones are laid out and connected, which does involve leg work. I didn't like grouping with players that didn't know how to get to you because they've always used click stones. I think knowing the world is healthy for players. I suppose where you and I differ is that I see teleporting as OK for higher level players, not lower level.How can you give someone the ability to port, then take it away after a few levels? Noobs are going to stick to the areas they know. As long as there are other low level players, they'll have plenty to do and just be learning the game slowly. High level players are going to be the ones that want to move around quickly.

#3: Classes can and should have TP abilities where it makes sense, i.e. magic classes. What doesn't make roleplaying sense is every single melee class getting a "port home" button they click that ports them around. Also, give the teleporting item or spell a reason to exist, ie from a quest reward.

#4: There was never a shortage of people in EQ who wanted to make money by offering ports or movement enhancing buffs. That only went away when click stones were added.

Travel:

So to start, I'll cover a couple basics that I'm sure you already have thought about. You can have certain classes have abilities to port players around or to help form groups. So, things like Wizard and Druid teleporting (Wizards through portals, Druids through the ground), Mages and Clerics having "summon hero" spells where they can pull players TO the group, or movement enhancing spells.

You could also do some form of quest restricted portal access. Have a few portals scattered around the continent, out in the wilderness away from the starting areas. It's almost like doing a fun keyed dungeon quest. Players can travel to and do quest specific to the lore of that area and gain a key. That key allows the player to travel back to the portal in that area. Have the portals restricted by level, so as players level up they eventually gain access to take the quest. This would encourage new players to explore around the game world with their own two legs, but eventually gain the ability to get around easier once they've learned the world.

When you're brand new to the game it's hard enough getting your bearings of your starting area, let alone the entire world (if you can easily travel around). Let players organically discover the world. Questing for access gives a reason in the storyline or lore for ports rather than just a LFG button you click to port to a group.

Groups & Dungeon Design:

LFG tools are great. What's not great is when you can just click a button and port wherever. I think for the most part, players are going to naturally gravitate towards the locations they want to group in and stay in that area. The idea that there's a big need to let people quickly move around the world is probably over-stated. You rarely need to travel from one side of the world to the other in quick succession. And if you could move around the entire world quickly, wouldn't that ruin your idea of items being rare in one area or another (players traveling to make a profit)?

Also, if you tiered your dungeons so that they are split into halfs or quarters, you could add TPs inside the dungeons where players could skip past content they've already completed to get closer to their group. They'll be in the area, do a short run to the dungeon, hit the first TP to skip stuff they've already done, and get to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th TP in the dungeon where their group is waiting.

Items:

Another way to add it is through items. Everyone liked The Overthere "hammer' quest where you could earn a hammer that ported you back. But again, it's an in-game reason for having the ability.

There could also be in-game scrolls/runes that are sold by NPC vendors (think about a plat sink) that have 1x charge of teleport to a certain location.

Philosophically Speaking:

I classify easy to get porting -say from NPC's or non-restricted click stones- as cheese. Just come up with a lore/quest/item/spell or any other reason for players to interact with eachother to get the port and I think most of us would be happy. I don't have a philosophical belief against porting, I like it where it makes roleplaying and lore sense. It's not about what you're doing in the game, it's how and why you're doing it. The quick, cheese solutions most MMOs have is what ruins it for me.

Aradune_sl said:

Perhaps we integrate extremely-pro-grouping mechanics like teleporting in the initial tutorial levels only?

Click to expand...

Nah. Over turning is bad. Making systems overly complex is bad. Too many mechanics aren't good.

I think the thing to do is what you're doing. Make fewer starting zones. Make content that is logically accessible. Do like Tokyo and build up and down; the world doesn't have to be sprawling to be rich and deep and vast. Hell, I could see a scenario where an amazing starting experience involved the first several levels without even leaving the starter city. Why do we need non-kos starting mobs out in an empty, safe field conveniently surrounding a tent village set up to do little more than train new fighters in the art of killing safe mobs in a sterile environment Send noobies to back alleys and basements, and maybe an abandon building or two with a few friends.

I'd love a huge city to start a game where noobies are fighting for scraps to survive as high level players are coming to trade or train. Where the guards are high level because there are actual high[er] level threats outside the city gates. I'd love a city where one direction is relative calm with low level mobs transitioning into higher level areas, but one city gate is high level, scary things, and thus high level players are close by adventuring and helping fend off real evils. Make it a place where new players can get a sense of an active world, find groups, find gear, find everything because it's where players congregate naturally, not just where the game guides them around by the nose in a thinly veiled tutorial.

I think the key to community in a modern MMO is going to be cities. The more action, relevance and importance cities play, the more the community will feel like a community. Let us port between cities. Make it easier for new players and old players to group and train and craft and buy things. Then, when you're ready to venture into the world, you have a foundation.

Basically, an urban-based community. A community centered around cities where you plan where you're going to go, instead of around exp zones where you've set up camp for weeks like in EQ because it's where you ended up and it wasn't always so easy to go elseware. Because while that was fun, I don't think anyone wants to log into the same zone for weeks on end grinding exp because it's the best 16-24 leveling camp. We want to hang out and meet people in centrally located places we recall/hearthstone/gate to after an adventure to sell and talk and prepare for the next day's adventure.

I think building Pantheon around major cities and creating a community around those social hubs will be the way to go with both social aspects, and adventuring.

Let me know when you decide to put LFG system in, I am ready to pull my pledge.

Aradune_sl said:

That seems to be the consensus -- don't do a dungeon finding system.... Unless we do it JUST for the first few tutorial levels. Helping new players find friends right away would probably be good, but as soon as they reach the level where the tutorial and hand holding ends, bye bye dungeon finder and other similar functionality. The more I think about this solution, the more I like it.

Click to expand...

It won't help them find friends, though. It will help them find acquaintances. It will teach them that like so many other modern mmos the game will provide henchmen that happen to be other players. Need a group? Here, the game will match you with someone.

Being forced to go to school didn't help you make friends. Being alone on the playground feeling uncomfortable and not wanting to be left out of the fun or games helped you make friends.

There will be other players in the world. Get them to the same areas and make them need each other. And don't make systems that discourage them grouping (like getting so much less exp grouped that it's not worth it, or having to take turns getting quest drops so it's faster to just get drops solo, etc). It'll be plenty foster cooperative play.

Tearofsoul_sl said:

Let me know when you decide to put LFG system in, I am ready to pull my pledge.

Click to expand...

You should be more clear. A LFG window that shows players LFG is different than a LFG tool that TPs you wherever you want.

Boozecube_sl said:

This is a debatable point though, not everyone is as much as a masochist as you are Dumar. I wish I could find the quote but Blizzard had numbers supporting that more than 70% of the players that played never made it past level 10. Those first few levels are where you needed the biggest help getting people hooked.

Click to expand...

The question is what gets people hooked. Is it being handed gear upgrades almost immediately from zero-danger fed-ex quests? Is it automatically grouping them together? Is it not letting them experience any death penalty?

For me, none of that stuff is at all a hook. It's boring and makes me think the entire game will try to play me instead of letting me play it. It makes me think the devs aren't confident enough in creating an engaging world that makes sense, so they have to force a convoluted, external logic to it that leads me around.

It's akin to reading a prologue by a hack writer who isn't confident in just starting the story, so they think describing some disconnected, contextually vague 'action' scene will make me keep reading. It doesn't. I put that shit down fast because I'm not going to invest time into anything that treats me like I'm an idiot. Whether it's a book or a game, I want to be given just enough to make due for myself, not led around like I'm too dumb to figure it out.

Of course, there are valid arguments that plenty of people want it easy. I'm not sure the target audience of Pantheon is that crowd, though.

Budos_sl said:

Dungeon finder for the tutorial would be great. Maybe even make the tutorial it's own server once the game has been out to get more people into it and allow a server selection at the end of it.

Click to expand...

Why teach people a game that is different than the main game? Why teach them mechanics that are different from the main mechanics?

This kind of thing is one of the aspects that killed Rift for me. There were two different games fighting against each other, and it made both games seem out of place. You had the easy-peasy quest-hub solo-grind, and you had dungeons that were actually pretty fun and challenging. People wanting the solo-questing got confused and raged at the dungeons. Those enjoying the dungeons hated the fact so many people were just playing the easy game. Then everyone got to max level and the game changed again.

More people will stick around for a consistent product, imo, especially over one that pulls a bait and switch.

Tearofsoul_sl said:

Let me know when you decide to put LFG system in, I am ready to pull my pledge.

Click to expand...

It depends on the system. Anything to help finding a group is fine IMO. But instant travel using LFG is not.

EQ's old travel system of using Wizards, Druids, etc was cool, even as a tank. And as a tank, I loved quests like the OT hammer, etc.




Consequence is what I'm looking for in an MMO. As a tank I expected life to be harder when traveling, but easier when getting hit. Trade offs.

I once was stuck in a Velious dungeon for days because I left before the raid was over and forgot to bring a gate potion. Had to wait for the guild to get to that spot again before I could play my main. And since I was in the top guild on the server, it took a week before they could get to my corpse. It totally sucked but I remember that more than any of the raids that followed.

BRUTAL

Make the fucking game brutal. Make us pay for our mistakes. Make us bitch and moan about how unfair you are. Be the unforgiving God of the game and reward us when we (rarely) succeed.

I think adding some earned tools like an OT hammer is a good compromise for starting out with restrictive travel. If your world design is careful, you can have lower level type of items like that that would only help out in that level range, and not beyond (a lot like the OT hammer).

Aradune_sl said:

That seems to be the consensus -- don't do a dungeon finding system.... Unless we do it JUST for the first few tutorial levels. Helping new players find friends right away would probably be good, but as soon as they reach the level where the tutorial and hand holding ends, bye bye dungeon finder and other similar functionality. The more I think about this solution, the more I like it.

Click to expand...

I don't know, the opening levels where you're low on skills and utility are some of the most memorable because that's where you first get that shock of how small you are in a massive world. I also think people chat more in early levels even in today's McMMOs as they're trying to meet people but once they see how easy DF* is everyone shuts up and sticks to their cliques. Most recent example I can think of was the total deterioration of FFXIV communities from the beta phase before DF was added to the beta phase it came on board. I can also see this backfiring where you get the players who like DF playing in the early levels then as soon as it gets shut off you're basically punching them directly in the dick. We all need to get punched in the dick from time to time, but it should be unexpected and happen in the game organically. This isn't removing training wheels, it's giving someone a car then taking it away from them and giving them a pair of sneakers.

The logic of encouraging grouping early on so people form relationships is sound. That's a great idea and I hope you're coming at it from every angle. However, there's a difference between grouping and 5 people smacking on shit simultaneously.

*By DF, I'm talking about the full on garbage you see in most games today where it's all cross-server and teleports you immediately into an instance. My opinion on dungeon dynamics below:

- Cross-server anything is a deal breaker for me. It ruins games. If I wanted faceless scrubs as my teammates I'd play a MOBA or some other lobby game.
- Direct teleporting full teams to instances should be a no go. I'm open to multiple players summoning 1 guy if he's already attuned (maybe if the first boss of an instance is already down? - Don't like groups falling apart for losing 1 guy) but don't push it - you're trying to differentiate yourself here. Every other game already bends over backwards.
- In open world, I'm OK with one or two classes having a summon. Maybe put it on a CD? Could also limit it by terrain, etc.
- Absolutely put in a fully functional LFG tool. Spend time on this to make sure you can break down what you're looking for whether it's EXP grinding, dungeons, crafting/item related, etc. Allow space for people to describe what they want. Can be LFG for multiple things and so on.
- I don't have a problem with allowing players a way to get past trash if they're added to an instance group mid-run. If you're in an open world dungeon, though? Dude better be able to sneak past the mobs if you don't have a (Summon class) or you have to go get him.

I haven't been able to keep up with the thread in its entirety, but has anyone brought up art style? I think we all know "Too Much Brown" was a little overplayed here, but in spite of a few wonderful graphics (clouds, night skies, some specular lighting on occasion), Vanguard severely suffered (imo) from terrible art design, especially the player races and their animations. Other things were amiss -- ultimately it wasn't that everything was terrible, but rather that things didn't feel put-together. Maybe it was the LOD, I don't know, but it didn't work for me and I don't think it worked for a lot of people.

Everquest, obviously, is a complete different story.

The concept are so far provided doesn't paint a particularly clear picture to me. I can't imagine them reaching the fidelity of the artwork, so I don't really know what to expect, or what The Vision has in store for us. Some true-to-expectation mock-ups would really be great, in my opinion. Where striving for computer-graphic-emulation is the target, not pretty pieces of art, per se.

DickTrickle_sl said:

I think adding some earned tools like an OT hammer is a good compromise for starting out with restrictive travel. If your world design is careful, you can have lower level type of items like that that would only help out in that level range, and not beyond (a lot like the OT hammer).

Click to expand...

What made the OT Hammer even better was it's low proc rate. There were a couple of times I pulled the OT Hammer out and died before it procced.

Nothing should be guaranteed.

I think any world fast travel should be supplied by a few classes, Wizards/Druids, etc, and be limited to certain geographical locations that each player has already visited. These areas should not be right next to dungeons. COTH type spells should have a limited range and should also be limited to a class or two, if put in at all. They should have a long reuse time as well as a 5-10% reduced stats penalty as a result of the port hurting you, or something else lore wise, to give people an incentive to fight through the dungeon instead of parking their ult somewhere permanently, etc.

During the development it seems like limiting all of these as much as possible and adding from there as necessary would give a gauge of how it would work out. A LFG tool showing the characters LFG would be good, but any ability to port into a dungeon with a group of people from around the world would be counter productive to having a community and group focused game with an actual world.

Hey guys, there's a design idea and issue that we're debating, and we'd really like your feedback.

Ok, so Pantheon is about a huge, interesting open world to explore. We don't want people teleporting all over the place, missing out on content and the grandeur of Terminus.

So far we've said that there will be some opportunities to teleport to some locations as long as you've travelled there before without teleporting. Kind of like the Velious teleports.

We've also said that if you're at the entrance to a dungeon, a group within that dungeon can teleport you to them (likely a spell shared by some classes).

But from a design and philosophical standpoint, huge open world to explore and teleports/quick travel seem mutually exclusive to many who are interested in Pantheon.

So what about an elaborate LFG system? A dungeon finder? Someway to quickly travel to adventure areas where other people have already gathered and are trying to form groups?

it's anti-exploration, but it's pro-grouping. And exploration and grouping are both two major components of what makes Pantheon the game we're so excited to be working on.

So how can we strike a balance here? How do we offer game mechanics that are focused on people finding groups, making friends, eventually guilds, etc., but not shrink the world by allowing people to port all over the place? Where do we draw a line in the sand? Is finding groups and making friends more important or less important than a vast open world to explore, where taking the time to travel to an exotic and distant location gives you a great sense of accomplishment?

Pantheon already has a strong Vision(TM) behind it. We are wrapping up the high level design documents. The team is ideologically on the same page and agree with our goals and tenets. With probably one exception, the one I'm bringing up here. We go back and forth on it. Heck, I can argue either side just as convincingly.

So what do you guys think? Where is the balance? What tenet takes priority over the other?

When I said the community would be more involved with Pantheon than any of the other games we've worked on, I meant it. I love doing interviews and chats and videos. I really enjoy answering future players' questions. But this issue is turning out to be a tough one and we could really use your help and feedback.

Thanks in advance!

Click to expand...

To riff on another poster earlier, try this:

Groups have banners that they can place outside of zones / dungeons, like an anchor. Anyone can inspect it, and the banner has information about where the group is, what they are trying to do (grind xp, camp a mob), the group composition and who to talk to about joining (if the group even wants people). You actually have tostand next to the banner, at the locationfor it to work. Which means travel. No global LFG system. But no spamming zones either with shouts. And groups don't have to place banners if they aren't interested in broadcasting themselves.

Groups can set / remove banners as they progress. Casters in the group can "enchant" the banner with a spell or other such item to create a short duration travel boost to help navigate to the groups location. Makes it a bit easier (like a speed / protection buff / invis for non-casters) but doesn't completely remove the danger of getting to the group needing people.

Just a thought.

one of the things that made EQ so memorable, was gradually expanding out into the world. i started in felwithe, gradually made my way to orc camp, then to crushbone, then to unrest, then mistmoore, etc. it was fucking awesome. traveling around in EQ is still to this day the very best memory i have of any MMO i've ever played. grouping should happen organically in your game if you do it right. people grouped at orc hill, helped each other survive, gradually started to pull the guards in front of crushbone, then bravely grouped together and ventured inside. you met those same friends every single day when you logged on, and you leveled up together, branched out together, experienced the game together, and made more friends as you went along. create the dungeons/areas for your players to explore, but don't just take them there, let them find those places on their own and EXPERIENCE the game for themselves. instant travel and instant LFG tools ruin this experience. you say you want to go back to your roots, well, this is where it all began, and this is the exact point that every game since EQ has gotten it wrong.

Irongut_sl said:

To riff on another poster earlier, try this:

Groups have banners that they can place outside of zones / dungeons, like an anchor. Anyone can inspect it, and the banner has information about where the group is, what they are trying to do (grind xp, camp a mob), the group composition and who to talk to about joining (if the group even wants people). You actually have tostand next to the banner, at the locationfor it to work. Which means travel. No global LFG system. But no spamming zones either with shouts. And groups don't have to place banners if they aren't interested in broadcasting themselves.

Groups can set / remove banners as they progress. Casters in the group can "enchant" the banner with a spell or other such item to create a short duration travel boost to help navigate to the groups location. Makes it a bit easier (like a speed / protection buff / invis for non-casters) but doesn't completely remove the danger of getting to the group needing people.

Just a thought.

Click to expand...

I like this.

So Brad, let me summarize all the responses thus far:

Remake DayZ standalone, except with swords and magic. Done.

etchazz_sl said:

one of the things that made EQ so memorable, was gradually expanding out into the world. i started in felwithe, gradually made my way to orc camp, then to crushbone, then to unrest, then mistmoore, etc. it was fucking awesome. traveling around in EQ is still to this day the very best memory i have of any MMO i've ever played. grouping should happen organically in your game if you do it right. people grouped at orc hill, helped each other survive, gradually started to pull the guards in front of crushbone, then bravely grouped together and ventured inside. you met those same friends every single day when you logged on, and you leveled up together, branched out together, experienced the game together, and made more friends as you went along. create the dungeons/areas for your players to explore, but don't just take them there, let them find those places on their own and EXPERIENCE the game for themselves. instant travel and instant LFG tools ruin this experience. you say you want to go back to your roots, well, this is where it all began, and this is the exact point that every game since EQ has gotten it wrong.

Click to expand...

Off course, this. It will need a firm hand, a strict focus and several other old school mechanisms(death penalty, corpse runs, binding, player interdependency) working together to pull this off again though. Since it looks like there is no strict focus or vision but rather a "tell me which features I should put in the game in order to get your pledge" you will get a bundle of features that will not work together to recreate what you described.

Not sure why people have to explain this to a dev who could know all this if he had kept his ear to a few forums for the last 10 years.

You can not really undo fast travel once you put it in so I would much rather see a original EQ style from the start and go from there. One of the real reasons so many game fail to hold players is instant gratification. This whole idea of logging in for a hour a night and getting everything you want to do done sucks. I talk to all these people who claim they have no time to play because of wife, job, kids and etc and the fuckers still play 4+ hours a night on different toons and other games so frankly most of this "I dont have time for X" is horseshit. I am not advocating EQ style time sync's for everything but there is something to be said for more challenging content and epic style quests that take longer than 20 minutes to complete.

I wanna feel like I accomplished something again in a MMO. I want to look at my character and his progression and gear and feel pride again knowing I put in the time and effort to get where I am today and not look at some fucking McCharacter that looks like every other asshole. Most games today your character really does not mean much and is frankly disposable. Games NEED to be slowed down and I think if you make the content good and make it a challenge things like slower travel will be fine. OT hammer rocks btw so I would be all for a more traditional EQ system with a couple porting classes and a couple items like the OT hammer.