Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Arctic_Slicer_sl

shitlord
155
0
Aradune_sl said:
Hey guys, there's a design idea and issue that we're debating, and we'd really like your feedback.

Ok, so Pantheon is about a huge, interesting open world to explore. We don't want people teleporting all over the place, missing out on content and the grandeur of Terminus.

So far we've said that there will be some opportunities to teleport to some locations as long as you've travelled there before without teleporting. Kind of like the Velious teleports.

We've also said that if you're at the entrance to a dungeon, a group within that dungeon can teleport you to them (likely a spell shared by some classes).

But from a design and philosophical standpoint, huge open world to explore and teleports/quick travel seem mutually exclusive to many who are interested in Pantheon.

So what about an elaborate LFG system? A dungeon finder? Someway to quickly travel to adventure areas where other people have already gathered and are trying to form groups?

it's anti-exploration, but it's pro-grouping. And exploration and grouping are both two major components of what makes Pantheon the game we're so excited to be working on.

So how can we strike a balance here? How do we offer game mechanics that are focused on people finding groups, making friends, eventually guilds, etc., but not shrink the world by allowing people to port all over the place? Where do we draw a line in the sand? Is finding groups and making friends more important or less important than a vast open world to explore, where taking the time to travel to an exotic and distant location gives you a great sense of accomplishment?

Pantheon already has a strong Vision(TM) behind it. We are wrapping up the high level design documents. The team is ideologically on the same page and agree with our goals and tenets. With probably one exception, the one I'm bringing up here. We go back and forth on it. Heck, I can argue either side just as convincingly.

So what do you guys think? Where is the balance? What tenet takes priority over the other?

When I said the community would be more involved with Pantheon than any of the other games we've worked on, I meant it. I love doing interviews and chats and videos. I really enjoy answering future players' questions. But this issue is turning out to be a tough one and we could really use your help and feedback.

Thanks in advance!
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Here is my opinion on this matter:

The only teleports that need to be available are self only gate to bind spells, group ports available to about 1 in 5 classes and Call of the Hero type of spells that only work within the same zone; anything more than that becomes world shrinking and will take away from the mystique and size of the world. The only LFG tools you need are /LFG on, /who all LFG, /who all class and the ability to send people tells; these simple tools served us well in EverQuest and can serve us well again in Pantheon. The closer your game is to EverQuest in this regard the better. If we end up with 8(16?) classes in Pantheon at launch make sure that at least 2(4?) of them can port and 2(4?) can Call of the Hero; and it will be great.
 
H

Hmerly

Golden Knight of the Realm
113
1
Brad,
This is so simple. Don't overthink it. Keep teleports working like they did in original EQ. That system worked. There is no need re-invent the wheel. Some of the most memorable moments in EQ were being ported for the first time to various locations. Give a recall to home ( gate ) spell to magic users, and make the non-magic users walk or search for someone who could port them home. Simple as that.

If yoiu make this game world large then you will have to have some sort of quick travel. Limited teleports throughout the world is the only sane way. Unless, you want to make another so called "modern" MMO, I suggest you keep to your stated goal of making a game for a "niche" audience. The people you are targeting for this game are not interested in another WoW clone, so stop trying to make a game like WoW. I don't understand how you could even be conflicted about this topic. You have a "VISION," stick with it. Are you making a "niche" product, or are you trying to once again be a product for everybody. Because, if you are not sure then you will have already lost. You cannot make another WoW clone and expect to succeed. You will fail as you cannot hope you churn out the content that blizzard can. Why bother?

Don't bother wasting your time crafting a separate tutorial. I have not played any MMO, which included a separate tutorial, that I found helpful in any way. Why teach a player one way in the tutorial, and then when the "real" game starts, the mechanics are made completely different? No easy ports to groups in dungeons. Do not allow quick ports to groups. Don't teach in tutorials what is not in game. Simple concept isn't it? Don't waste your time. KISS is the best principle.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
7,446
11,688
Hmerly_sl said:
...and make the non-magic users walk or search for someone who could port them home. Simple as that.
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I don't think I've seen anyone, no matter how die-hard, old-school, hardcore EQ fan, who has thought this is a good idea to go back to. So congrats for that.

You're right, though, one of my strongest memories was going LD at the entrance of Seb and not being able to get back on until the wee hours when most of my guilds/friends weren't online. It was awesome not being able to play at all if I didn't happen to have a porting friends who couldn't sleep, which I didn't. Sending random tells to strangers at 2am really is the height of socializing. I know, my bad, should have made more friends with the Japanese guilds who didn't speak any English!

So, yes, let's please go back to that. Melee shouldn't have any gate spells or Pantheon will just be another WoW clone!
 
RobXIII

RobXIII

Urinal Cake Consumption King
<Gold Donor>
3,671
1,808
popsicledeath_sl said:
I don't think I've seen anyone, no matter how die-hard, old-school, hardcore EQ fan, who has thought this is a good idea to go back to. So congrats for that.

You're right, though, one of my strongest memories was going LD at the entrance of Seb and not being able to get back on until the wee hours when most of my guilds/friends weren't online. It was awesome not being able to play at all if I didn't happen to have a porting friends who couldn't sleep, which I didn't. Sending random tells to strangers at 2am really is the height of socializing. I know, my bad, should have made more friends with the Japanese guilds who didn't speak any English!

So, yes, let's please go back to that. Melee shouldn't have any gate spells or Pantheon will just be another WoW clone!
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Much hate with this one! I remember making a ton of port potions for my poor disadvantaged melee friends for just such an occasion. Cheap enough to break the bank, expensive enough to not be used to save 5 minutes.

Except for rangers, their Kunark BP procced gate for them when they got hit so no potions for them!
 
F

Faranor_sl

shitlord
18
0
Brad,
Keep the ports as they were in Velious and make sure the dungeon entrances are not too far from a portal. Looking for group: make it a good tool to find a group (or a new member) but limit the summoning the new member from the entrance of a dungeon to the group only.

-Fara
 
T

TheYanger

Bronze Knight of the Realm
264
30
Hmerly_sl said:
Brad,
This is so simple. Don't overthink it. Keep teleports working like they did in original EQ. That system worked. There is no need re-invent the wheel. Some of the most memorable moments in EQ were being ported for the first time to various locations. Give a recall to home ( gate ) spell to magic users, and make the non-magic users walk or search for someone who could port them home. Simple as that.

If yoiu make this game world large then you will have to have some sort of quick travel. Limited teleports throughout the world is the only sane way. Unless, you want to make another so called "modern" MMO, I suggest you keep to your stated goal of making a game for a "niche" audience. The people you are targeting for this game are not interested in another WoW clone, so stop trying to make a game like WoW. I don't understand how you could even be conflicted about this topic. You have a "VISION," stick with it. Are you making a "niche" product, or are you trying to once again be a product for everybody. Because, if you are not sure then you will have already lost. You cannot make another WoW clone and expect to succeed. You will fail as you cannot hope you churn out the content that blizzard can. Why bother?

Don't bother wasting your time crafting a separate tutorial. I have not played any MMO, which included a separate tutorial, that I found helpful in any way. Why teach a player one way in the tutorial, and then when the "real" game starts, the mechanics are made completely different? No easy ports to groups in dungeons. Do not allow quick ports to groups. Don't teach in tutorials what is not in game. Simple concept isn't it? Don't waste your time. KISS is the best principle.
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A dungeon finder itself is not necessarily wow-like, it's not like I'm more immersed going "RANGER OF THE THIRTIETH SEASON SEEKING COMPANIONS FOR ADVENTURES OF DARING DO IN YON DUNGEON OF VILE GUK" than clicking 'show me the groups'. I do think a dungeon finding tool should just be a simple tool, like LFG style flags, not a full on random group creation tool of ANY kind. I would say if you can make a dungeon for each level range in each section of the world, which EQ MOSTLY had, and make them all worhtwhile, then there's no need for particularly instant travel options. Yeah, I might WANT to go see Mistmoore, but I'm right next to Guk and if I really only have 30 minutes I can find a group there. Maybe add like a 'local' LFG checkbox that will only show you groups in zones within x connections of where you're at. Just enough so that if I'm closer to Befallen than Blackburrow I won't get BB or Crushbone shit showing up in my finder at that level range.
 
A

Aeiouy_sl

shitlord
217
0
Furious_sl said:
No to dungeon finder.

If anything have a Mage cast call of hero type spell to bring a group member in. Can only be cast 1 time per person per 23 hour timer.
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Yeah I am against the call of hero type spell but their intent is to have massive break points. I think at least a 12 hour debuff preventing such calling.

Although honestly I prefer pois exist near dungeons that serve as hubs for people wanting to do the nearby dungeon. This would provide limited pay to port, from others , there. I would want to limit/completely avoid anyone porting people inside dungeons at all. If corpses exist I prefer corpses come to safe areas and not players to corpses.

As previous noted I think all teleport destinations must be visited by foot or mount before they become available by magic. Also beyond wizards and Druids chsrging for teleports I want one of two classes that make minimum usage port stones that can be sold to other players but expire upon logging off. Plus these stones could use reagents from in and around the poi.

Let us say there is a little gypsy poi near sunken sanctum. Class z has the ability to make recall stones to this gypsy camp, only for people who have already been to the gypsy camp. The tooth reagent to make the recall stone drops in sunken sanctum and the areas ariound there. The sunken sanctum recall stone would be lore, meaning you can only have one on you, and like magician summon items in eq they would disappear when logging off.

You could even have levels for the summoning rock spell for each location. Level 1 has 1 charge. Level 2 has 5 charges, level 3 has only one charge but it is permanent until used.

I envision these poi locations to be in addition to the wizard and Druid portsls. These would create a third level of player dependence for travel and this one would specifically be for dungeons. One of the other features of the pois would be lfg tools for that specific area/dungeon.

You would always have yo walk to these pois the first time. Also subsequent times when you are unable to find someone to make portal stones or you can not afford one.

This still requires players to travel overland. Requires player to player I reaction and potential monetary exchanges and finally creates regional lfg dungeon hubs instead of global ui hubs.
 
Vandyn

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
3,652
1,378
You guys understand that not having any sort of grouping mechanic flies in the face of the comment Brad made that he wants casuals to play in 1-2 increments. Adding time sinks goes against that.

I think population needs to be a factor as well. If it's a small player base and most of the server is high level, how is a lower level player supposed to find groups.
 
Lambourne

Lambourne

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,717
6,535
Vandyn_sl said:
You guys understand that not having any sort of grouping mechanic flies in the face of the comment Brad made that he wants casuals to play in 1-2 increments. Adding time sinks goes against that.

I think population needs to be a factor as well. If it's a small player base and most of the server is high level, how is a lower level player supposed to find groups.
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This can easily be solved by having things to do other than kill mobs in a dungeon in a group. This is one of WoW's poisons in the well: running a dungeon in a group is the only way to advance and DPS numbers are the only measure of efficiency.

I played EQ from Europe before there was a Euro server so it was mostly during off-peak hours (I'd log on around 3 AM EST) and always found stuff to do. Solo xp, farm a lower level dungeon for items to sell, level an alt, tradeskill etc. If the world is to have meaning all these type of activities must be possible; otherwise it is only there to be a giant lobby for the group-XP dungeons and we're back to McMMO.

As far as tutorials, I'd advise against them completely. Progressively introducing abilities, easy mobs and a low level dungeon close to the starting area is enough. It will work in today's market, minecraft had less in-game help than 1999 EQ did and that hasn't stopped it from being one of the biggest successes of the decade.
 
Quineloe

Quineloe

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,978
4,463
popsicledeath_sl said:
I don't think I've seen anyone, no matter how die-hard, old-school, hardcore EQ fan, who has thought this is a good idea to go back to. So congrats for that.

You're right, though, one of my strongest memories was going LD at the entrance of Seb and not being able to get back on until the wee hours when most of my guilds/friends weren't online. It was awesome not being able to play at all if I didn't happen to have a porting friends who couldn't sleep, which I didn't. Sending random tells to strangers at 2am really is the height of socializing. I know, my bad, should have made more friends with the Japanese guilds who didn't speak any English!

So, yes, let's please go back to that. Melee shouldn't have any gate spells or Pantheon will just be another WoW clone!
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you could have just run to the exit, you giant pussy
 
P

PhoneticHalo_sl

shitlord
153
0
popsicledeath_sl said:
I don't think I've seen anyone, no matter how die-hard, old-school, hardcore EQ fan, who has thought this is a good idea to go back to. So congrats for that.

You're right, though, one of my strongest memories was going LD at the entrance of Seb and not being able to get back on until the wee hours when most of my guilds/friends weren't online. It was awesome not being able to play at all if I didn't happen to have a porting friends who couldn't sleep, which I didn't. Sending random tells to strangers at 2am really is the height of socializing. I know, my bad, should have made more friends with the Japanese guilds who didn't speak any English!

So, yes, let's please go back to that. Melee shouldn't have any gate spells or Pantheon will just be another WoW clone!
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Wasn't this just a one off thing cause you went LD? not sure its wise to stop all the positives from not having fast travel because of this. Also its theses moments that give fear to the world. yeah it sucked but it wasnt what happened every day.
 
Vandyn

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
3,652
1,378
Lambourne_sl said:
This can easily be solved by having things to do other than kill mobs in a dungeon in a group. This is one of WoW's poisons in the well: running a dungeon in a group is the only way to advance and DPS numbers are the only measure of efficiency.

I played EQ from Europe before there was a Euro server so it was mostly during off-peak hours (I'd log on around 3 AM EST) and always found stuff to do. Solo xp, farm a lower level dungeon for items to sell, level an alt, tradeskill etc. If the world is to have meaning all these type of activities must be possible; otherwise it is only there to be a giant lobby for the group-XP dungeons and we're back to McMMO.

As far as tutorials, I'd advise against them completely. Progressively introducing abilities, easy mobs and a low level dungeon close to the starting area is enough. It will work in today's market, minecraft had less in-game help than 1999 EQ did and that hasn't stopped it from being one of the biggest successes of the decade.
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Well if we're talking about early EQ, a lot of what you did solo was dependent on class. There were certain classes that just could not solo effectively, especially at lower levels. This game is being marketed as putting grouping first and foremost (to encourage the social aspect). It's a fine line the devs have to walk. I understand this game is supposed to be niche and supposed to be 'hard' (although adding timesinks does not equal hard, it equals a timesink) but it's also a business. You have to try to get players to want to play your game, yes that includes people that never played Everquest. They say they want players to not have to be forced to invest tons of time to see the content, what's the answer to that? Make every class solo capable (again goes against grouping)? Allow players to level up via quests and mobs? I don't think these questions have been answered.

PhoneticHalo_sl said:
Wasn't this just a one off thing cause you went LD? not sure its wise to stop all the positives from not having fast travel because of this. Also its theses moments that give fear to the world. yeah it sucked but it wasnt what happened every day.
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Once you were familiar with the game, everyone I knew that played EQ just hugged the zone walls to get through. It wasn't fear at that point, it was tedium.
 
M

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
Faranor_sl said:
Brad,
Keep the ports as they were in Velious and make sure the dungeon entrances are not too far from a portal.

-Fara
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So make sure you can skip all the content, port directly to a spire, then run 10ft to the zone entrance? If that's the case, then fuck it, just put instances inside a city. Since were putting the game on easy mode, sit in city, then run 10ft to an instance. That way you never have to actually run out into the world!

In all seriousness, that was the beauty of Everquest. Those who were willing to take the biggest risks received the greatest rewards.
 
Rod-138

Rod-138

Trakanon Raider
1,138
888
Class only teleports and/or maybe some that cost the equivalent of like a coffin in original EQ. Something that really hurts the pocket book for each TP. No LFG system but something that is akin to posters in a town board.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,380
276
Aradune_sl said:
Hey guys, there's a design idea and issue that we're debating, and we'd really like your feedback.

Ok, so Pantheon is about a huge, interesting open world to explore. We don't want people teleporting all over the place, missing out on content and the grandeur of Terminus.

So far we've said that there will be some opportunities to teleport to some locations as long as you've travelled there before without teleporting. Kind of like the Velious teleports.

We've also said that if you're at the entrance to a dungeon, a group within that dungeon can teleport you to them (likely a spell shared by some classes).

But from a design and philosophical standpoint, huge open world to explore and teleports/quick travel seem mutually exclusive to many who are interested in Pantheon.

So what about an elaborate LFG system? A dungeon finder? Someway to quickly travel to adventure areas where other people have already gathered and are trying to form groups?

it's anti-exploration, but it's pro-grouping. And exploration and grouping are both two major components of what makes Pantheon the game we're so excited to be working on.

So how can we strike a balance here? How do we offer game mechanics that are focused on people finding groups, making friends, eventually guilds, etc., but not shrink the world by allowing people to port all over the place? Where do we draw a line in the sand? Is finding groups and making friends more important or less important than a vast open world to explore, where taking the time to travel to an exotic and distant location gives you a great sense of accomplishment?

Pantheon already has a strong Vision(TM) behind it. We are wrapping up the high level design documents. The team is ideologically on the same page and agree with our goals and tenets. With probably one exception, the one I'm bringing up here. We go back and forth on it. Heck, I can argue either side just as convincingly.

So what do you guys think? Where is the balance? What tenet takes priority over the other?
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Like others said, the world takes precedence over the convenience. Always. That should be a major rule for the entire project. Whenever you add something, ask yourself if its fits the world you are building (which is a weak spot of Pantheon imo because of the "out there" lore). If it doesnt fit the world, drop it or rework it.

An LFG feature is good and required - but no automated group matching, just a way to list yourself as lfg with a text field for details, or maybe checkboxes for major dungeons and 'other'. I would be against teleporting people to their set group or to any dungeons to faciliate grouping except if its done by a class ability - and then that ability has to fit the class and the world, not just be given to most classes to circumvent the world design.

People are not entitled to have every dungeon in the world at their fingertips, and a "port to group" feature will create that expectation. Instead, make sure that the areas in the vicinity of major dungeons provide suitable content for duos/trios so people hanging out nearby in order to get a dungeon group dont just waste their time. Instead, allow them to decide "I want to spend some time/levels in this major dungeon" so they relocate there (can take a long time, since they dont do that daily) but then have activities in that area that they can engage in while not grouping inside the dungeon itself. Faction work, smaller caves and tombs for duo/trio play, crafting mats farming if you add crafting - there are alot of activities that should eventually enter the game that flesh out the world around the core of dungeoneering.

Any kind of teleportation to group fosters a "hang out in main city for lfg and then the quick travel class runs to the dungeon for summons (whichever mechanic achieves that, dont argue with specifcs). You want people to play near the dungeon even when doing some solo or small group stuff. Afaik you didnt play WoW, but for others the example would be Alliance, dungeons Deadmines and Shadowfang. You rarely did the latter because the entire region wasnt suited to a lvl20 Alliance spending to there, but you usually do Deadmines because you are leveling in Westfall and people form the groups right there in Westfall. This was before LFD of course, which killed the outdoor world. So please, dont kill the outdoor world in Pantheon.
 
P

PhoneticHalo_sl

shitlord
153
0
Also travel was not just time sink in EQ. The sense of adventure and reward for traveling was what made EQ so good. I dont know if old EQ was perfect but it was very close. The long levelling curve also helped cause you would get to place and know the journey was worth it cause you were going to be there for a while. It wasn't turn up blow through the content and have to leave to the next area.
 
T

TragedyAnn_sl

shitlord
222
1
Budos_sl said:
Dungeon finder for the tutorial would be great. Maybe even make the tutorial it's own server once the game has been out to get more people into it and allow a server selection at the end of it.
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They had like different slices or whatever in LOTRO. Until you finished your noob quests, you were on a different layer and couldn't see or interact with the rest of the server population.

I like the idea of talking to the barkeep to see a list of LFG, or LFG in chat. But no "join a queue and we'll insta-group/port you".

As far as travel, I don't want to just pull out my map and click a POI to travel there.
If there's not a spire or something, maybe use the auto-mounts to run you there, once you've already visited the next POI. It would provide that small "get up and make sure the kids aren't drinking drano" break that many players need.

I like the idea of allowing wizards to create port-keys out of objects. It's a lot like the guild flags in eq2. Also, since port-keys makes me think of harry potter, wizards could apparate/disapparate with a chance of splinching. So you show up to your group half dead lol
 
M

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
I'm fine with the spires in original EQ. If your playing at 2 in the morning, yea, gonna be tough to find a port. The location of the spires also insured you were still required to travel by foot or horse to get to your destination but it allowed you to continue playing.

A LFG tool is fine. If I need a level 12 tank, it would be nice to check the list and send a tell directly to the tank to see if they are interested in joining. That being said, I never once used it. In most cases there were players sitting at the entrance "shouting" for group, or I asked in guild chat if anyone wanted to join and that would normally do the trick. A LFG tool that auto-ports people directly to the group or dungeon. Just...no. HELL NO.

COTH is useful and does have a place in the game. It MUST be in. I was a wizzy and it didn't do a fuck bit of good if I actually found a group in say, KC, but say its late and not many groups camping then how in the fuck am I supposed to get from the entrance to the Hand room or basement? Or hell even the courtyard? Yea, not gonna happen unless the whole group pulls up camp and fights their way to the entrance, picks me up then fights all the way and prays no one took the camp. Since Brad is talking about big, sprawling dungeons (think Seb or Guk), then COTH is a must.
 
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