Preacher

Rengak · Aug 22, 2018

khorum said:
Want me to go over it again?

The show has absolutely suffered from its clumsy pedantry. Not only have I mentioned how the changes in the adaptation doesn't do this show any favors, I even explained how OTHER shows, which are arguably even MORE SJW, have managed the same thing but have maintained or even improved the integrity of the material. I'm sure someone out there would say that American Gods is a worse show for all the gay ifrits and BLM Anansi, but it's undeniably consistent with the themes of the book and the show pulls it off well.

Not so with Preacher. Turning Tulip into a total badass undermined her role as Jesse's vulnerable, residual humanity in the comics, and Cassidy being a silly sidekick likewise displaces him as Jesse's voracious, amoral avenging id that Cassidy served in the comics. The saint of killers being totally one-dimensional and unsympathetic is gonna be weird fix for spoilery reasons on how the series ends too. The books spent whole volumes on the saint and his motivations all align with exactly how he ends up. Not this lame ass cowboy terminator that Jesse's crew clowns on.

And really those changes weren't for structural or thematic consistency---they were there because they wanted to inject modern SJW shit into Preacher, and they fucked it up.

Your explanation is bad and you should feel bad.

Comic Jesse was not some equal opportunity critic as you claim. Comic Jesse was a self righteous asshole who punches anyone who tells him no.

Tulip was not Jesse's residual humanity, Tulip was a possession to Jesse. Jesse felt he had to protect her because he thought she couldn't take care of herself. You also seem to forget that comic Tulip was a well trained contract killer.

The Saint of Killers is very one dimensional in the comics as well. I don't know why you are complaining about him when they put his entire 4 comic arc into the show. I think I know what sympathy you are referring to, but that doesn't come in until the end of the series.

khorum · Aug 22, 2018

Tarisk said:
Not at all. I just feel like its not in preacher like you're insisting. .

Oh whew... for a second there I thought you posted "You're really pushing the anti-white male conspiracy theories pretty hard here"....which, yeah I totally would even if they WERE conspiracy theories, instead of the professed existential purpose of all SJW's including every talk, tweet and speech Seth Rogen's given for the last year and a half.

And yet I didn't push any anti-white-male theories, conspiracy or otherwise, I responded to you and Soygen asking me why I felt the adaptation's turn was towards an SJW direction and why I thought that turned out poorly for the show. I did that all that and I don't mind repeating it if you don't mind me cutting-and-pasting it. But Rogen's and the other showrunner's SJW fingerprints are ABSOLUTELY all over structural components of the show, including key roles that were gutted for gratuitous SJW reach-arounds.

I had high hopes for the adaptation, I was among the early posters in this thread when folks were still giddy for a committed adaptation from a premium cable channel and I sat through the first couple seasons. It was a disappointment at first and quickly became an exercise in Rogen's SJW hipster-normativity.

khorum · Aug 22, 2018

Rengak said:
Your explanation is bad and you should feel bad.

Comic Jesse was not some equal opportunity critic as you claim. Comic Jesse was a self righteous asshole who punches anyone who tells him no.

.

What the fuck is a self-righteous asshole who punches everyone who pisses him off if NOT an equal-opportunity critic?

I didn't forget Tulip's co-dependence in the books. That was the vulnerability and self-destructiveness that Show-Tulip LOST on the way to the becoming the Mary Sue she is on the show. Jesse's possessiveness and subsequent emotional abuse of her in the comics framed the changes his hero undergoes on his journey, with Cassidy's id bracketing him in the other direction. All throughout Jesse strains against them both until it breaks HIM, not them.

That's a lot of the richness about the character work in the books, where even the villains like Starr and the Saint were fleshed out. But the show pares that down, shuffles their personas and motivations entirely to "freshen up" the story for an postmodern audience----and yet EVEN THEN I've said repeatedly that this isn't always a disaster. American Gods went further with their adaptation and it still works. Preacher's has suffered because of it.

Rengak · Aug 22, 2018

If you hate everything it doesn't make you an equal opportunity critic, it makes you an asshole.

Comic spoilers

Comic Tulip wasn't self destructive until after monument valley. She thought Jesse was dead and then Cassidy got her hooked on pills. Jesse only changes when he sees her with Cassidy and gets jealous.

The love triangle doesn't break Jesse at all. He shows back up, tells Cassidy to fuck off, then they meet up to punch each other presumably to the death.

Maybe you should reread the comics

Expanding Tulips role isn't some sjw conspiracy, it is a way to fill more time for the TV show. Is expanding arsefaces and hitlers role also sjw? How can Tulip be a Mary Sue when she got killed? I wasn't aware that unstoppable plot armor characters died.

khorum · Aug 22, 2018

Rengak said:
If you hate everything it doesn't make you an equal opportunity critic, it makes you an asshole.

Expanding Tulips role isn't some sjw conspiracy, it is a way to fill more time for the TV show. Is expanding arsefaces and hitlers role also sjw? How can Tulip be a Mary Sue when she got killed? I wasn't aware that unstoppable plot armor characters died.

Well it would make you an equal-opportunity asshole, as opposed to the one-dimensional prick who's only an asshole to the folks the showrunners want to demean. Which is what show-runners have done with their Jesse.

I don't need to reread the books since that broadly explains that my point still stands: Tulip's vulnerability and codependency bracketted Jesse along with Cassidy's amorality and impulsiveness. Their dysfunction brings GROUNDS Jesse it culminates at the end of his journey.

As for Mary Sue Tulip, I stopped watching the show, but is she out of the show for good and NOT coming back? That would still make her the empowered radfem heroine the SJW showrunners want to normalize.

Alex · Aug 22, 2018

I'm not going to read any of the previous posts. Not worth it. I look forward to you stalking me and salting every one of my posts like you do to others.

Asmadai · Aug 22, 2018

breaking news everyone, the book is better than the movie/show.

what will i do with this amazing new found knowledge?

khorum · Aug 22, 2018

Alex said:
I'm not going to read any of the previous posts. Not worth it. I look forward to you stalking me and salting every one of my posts like you do to others.

ROFL WTF? How about you just pick out ONE post where I was rude to you or to anyone else throughout this discussion before you got triggered by someone criticizing SJWs? Maybe then you can be at least a little informed before you slink into your martyrdom routine.

Because that's EXACTLY the pattern of every fuckwit who claims "I stalked them to salt them" when even a cursory look at my feedback history proves how hilariously wrong that is to begin with.

khorum · Aug 22, 2018

Asmadai said:
breaking news everyone, the book is better than the movie/show.

what will i do with this amazing new found knowledge?

I actually cited an example that contradicts that... not every book that goes SJW through its adaptation suffers during the transition. Just about everyone agreed that American Gods' adaptation is even more SJW than the book but it's STILL a great show.

Cybsled · Aug 22, 2018

Khorum is like that preacher that tried to find secret gay codes in television and claim it was part of brainwashing the younger generations to make them accept "sinful homosexuality".

"That person ate a purple grape! PURPLE!!! AGENDA!! REEEEE"

khorum · Aug 22, 2018

Cybsled said:
Khorum is like that preacher that tried to find secret gay codes in television and claim it was part of brainwashing the younger generations to make them accept "sinful homosexuality".

"That person ate a purple grape! PURPLE!!! AGENDA!! REEEEE"

LMAO aww teehee you made a joke!

But how did I manage to miss all those "gay codes" in American Gods then? I've repeatedly mentioned that since the very beginning when I responded to Soygen and Tarisk's question about my criticism.

American Gods' adaptation went further into the SJW weeds than Preacher's. Bilquis's antics, Anansi's diatribes and Vulcan's....everything.... were all pedantic excursions from the novel and the show RETAINS its integrity and the adaptation is better for it.

Tarisk · Aug 22, 2018

khorum said:
LMAO aww teehee you made a joke!

But how did I manage to miss all those "gay codes" in American Gods then? I've repeatedly mentioned that since the very beginning when I responded to Soygen and Tarisk's question about my criticism.

American Gods' adaptation went further into the SJW weeds than Preacher's. Bilquis's antics, Anansi's diatribes and Vulcan's....everything.... were all pedantic excursions from the novel and the show RETAINS its integrity and the adaptation is better for it.

Except American Gods isnt this. And every single time you were asked to give something to show Preacher's SJW agenda, you either didnt say anything other than how you disliked what Seth did, or you gave examples from other products. Which I agreed with, when talking about those particular examples. But as hard as is it might seem to believe, those are still not Preacher.

Even after i tried to clarify, you said the same thing, again. Which had no examples, just that you didnt like what Seth Rogan did because it's SJW.

Finally, more recently, you claimed Tulip was a mary sue, which I and apparently a few others here feel she isn't either,. And then you admitted you stopped watching the show, which leads me to ask why the fuck are you even in this thread if you stopped caring about watching the show? Oh wait, cause you fell out of the politics thread and landed here because everything not wearing a MAGA hat is SJW REEE.

As far as you asking for when you've stalking people and salting them. Right here, you've salted almost every one of my posts in this thread to you. Or did you forget that too?

khorum · Aug 22, 2018

Tarisk said:
Except American Gods isnt this. And every single time you were asked to give something to show Preacher's SJW agenda, you either didnt say anything other than how you disliked what Seth did, or you gave examples from other products. Which I agreed with, when talking about those particular examples. But as hard as is it might seem to believe, those are still not Preacher.

Even after i tried to clarify, you said the same thing, again. Which had no examples, just that you didnt like what Seth Rogan did because it's SJW.

Finally, more recently, you claimed Tulip was a mary sue, which I and apparently a few others here feel she isn't either,. And then you admitted you stopped watching the show, which leads me to ask why the fuck are you even in this thread if you stopped caring about watching the show? Oh wait, cause you fell out of the politics thread and landed here because everything not wearing a MAGA hat is SJW REEE.

As far as you asking for when you've stalking people and salting them. Right here, you've salted almost every one of my posts in this thread to you. Or did you forget that too?

LMAO WTF is this shit? Weren't we having a pleasant discussion this whole time? Where is all this REEEEING coming from all of a sudden....anyone can look up at the entire length of the discussion and figure out it sure as shit wasn't coming from me. I gave you a long and reasoned answer to every question you asked.

I mentioned American Gods in response to that fucking mongoloid

Cybsled 's snide one-line faggotry because he insisted I was being some televangelist seeing the devil's work in everything. Except I've REPEATEDLY expressed my admiration for American Gods which didn't compromise the integrity of the material whilst pumping even MORE SJW SHIT into their adaptation of the books. Since their changes maintained the theme and impact of the novels, it's consistent with what made the book appealing.

I bring it up every time to contrast it with the decisions Preacher's showrunners made to hamfistedly cram their SJW "vision" of what Preacher should be for contemporary audiences, and how their adaptation fails BECAUSE of those decisions---IE turning tulip into a more independent, self-assured figure from the codependent basketcase she was in the comic and turning Cassidy into a chummy narcoleptic instead of the irrascible id he is in the comic.

I've repeated this to you EVERY TIME as those examples of how Seth Rogen's rampant SJW agenda has infected the show's direction. Which was the original question I was responding to and to what I've been unfailingly polite in all my responses so far. But now since you decided you're gonna hop on this buttmad fagwagon with

Alex 's perplexing pussyhurt hissyfit, my objection to how Seth Rogen's rabid SJW shit ruining this show is somehow me "Reeeeing"?

Cmon now, really?

Cybsled · Aug 22, 2018

You consider that SJW in Preacher? Jesus, you are fucking thin skinned. Tulip isn't even some Mary Sue...she has an air of confidence, but that leads her to fuck up a lot. Hell, GOD thinks she is going to fuck up everything. There are very few adaptations that don't change characters in various ways...what works well on the page doesn't work well on the screen, especially when you take into consideration the actor. Tulip being a codependent basket-case in the show would be a fast trip to "this character is fucking annoying, kill her off already" in terms of audience reaction. If your characters are completely unlikable, then your show is going to suffer.

Also for adaptations, lets go back to American Gods. I'll use Technology Boy as an example. When American Gods came out as a book, the fat basement dwelling nerd (as cliche as that was) was what "represented" technology at the time. But using that now would seem dumb, because it is a dated cliche. A narcissist, 4Chan psychopath social media "star" fits the bill much better in today's world, so it makes sense they updated his character. Much like the Gods in the show and book, they represent what people's thought-form creates them to be. By that very plot element, you -HAVE- to update them for modern audiences to actually sell that plot point and make it believable, otherwise your audience is going to think they aren't accurate representations of what they are supposed to be.

Tarisk · Aug 22, 2018

khorum said:
LMAO WTF is this shit? Weren't we having a pleasant discussion this whole time? Where is all this REEEEING coming from all of a sudden....anyone can look up at the entire length of the discussion and figure out it sure as shit wasn't coming from me. I gave you a long and reasoned answer to every question you asked.

I mentioned American Gods in response to that fucking mongoloid Cybsled 's snide one-line faggotry because he insisted I was being some televangelist seeing the devil's work in everything. Except I've REPEATEDLY expressed my admiration for American Gods which didn't compromise the integrity of the material whilst pumping even MORE SJW SHIT into their adaptation of the books. Since their changes maintained the theme and impact of the novels, it's consistent with what made the book appealing.

I bring it up every time to contrast it with the decisions Preacher's showrunners made to hamfistedly cram their SJW "vision" of what Preacher should be for contemporary audiences, and how their adaptation fails BECAUSE of those decisions---IE turning tulip into a more independent, self-assured figure from the codependent basketcase she was in the comic and turning Cassidy into a chummy narcoleptic instead of the irrascible id he is in the comic.

I've repeated this to you EVERY TIME as those examples of how Seth Rogen's rampant SJW agenda has infected the show's direction. Which was the original question I was responding to and to what I've been unfailingly polite in all my responses before this so far. But now since you decided you're gonna hop on this buttmad fagwagon with Alex 's perplexing pussyhurt hissyfit, my objection to how Seth Rogen's rabid SJW shit ruining this show is somehow me "Reeeeing"?

Cmon now, really?

Lol, this shit 100% deserves a Worf. We're right back to square one with this post. You are sounding like the MAGA version of an SJW extremist with this shit. You have this paranoia that making a female character independant is some evil SJW plot and not just a creative decision made for the adaptation (I'll take a page from your book and repeat myself here - Tulip really isn't as bulletproof as you hype her up to be, she still gets in trouble, fucks up. has the O'hare curse, even has God trusting her to fuck up) She's if anything, always making it WORSE for Jesse. (shooting Starr when Jesse was about to get his soul back), having the wrong brief case in a recent episode (but you don't watch anymore, but still infect these threads with your own REE'ing about REE'ing, right?)

When most everyone else feels that its just them fleshing out a character to make an hour long TV show flow better, which I especially feel she does. Ruth is a good actress and a good choice for the part, why not keep that going? Oh wait, cause must be the SJW agenda taking over the world, one TV show at a time!

And as far as Cassidy, again, because you don't watch you're basing it on what you gathered from what you watched, but you quit and aren't even keeping up (again WHY are you in this thread other than to create conflict with your own agenda at this point, if you don't even watch the show now?) He's going through a character change currently, and possibly leading up to the character you want him to be as he's going through his own development arc atm away from the group.

khorum · Aug 22, 2018

Cybsled said:
You consider that SJW in Preacher? Jesus, you are fucking thin skinned. Tulip isn't even some Mary Sue...she has an air of confidence, but that leads her to fuck up a lot. Hell, GOD thinks she is going to fuck up everything. There are very few adaptations that don't change characters in various ways...what works well on the page doesn't work well on the screen, especially when you take into consideration the actor. Tulip being a codependent basket-case in the show would be a fast trip to "this character is fucking annoying, kill her off already" in terms of audience reaction. If your characters are completely unlikable, then your show is going to suffer.

Also for adaptations, lets go back to American Gods. I'll use Technology Boy as an example. When American Gods came out as a book, the fat basement dwelling nerd (as cliche as that was) was what "represented" technology at the time. But using that now would seem dumb, because it is a dated cliche. A narcissist, 4Chan psychopath social media "star" fits the bill much better in today's world, so it makes sense they updated his character. Much like the Gods in the show and book, they represent what people's thought-form creates them to be. By that very plot element, you -HAVE- to update them for modern audiences to actually sell that plot point and make it believable, otherwise your audience is going to think they aren't accurate representations of what they are supposed to be.

No idiot, I mentioned turning techboy into a 4chan bro was an example of a GOOD adaptation, despite whatever motivations there were. Same with Media. Even Vulcan---who wasn't in the books at all and was totally an SJW jab at American NRA gun culture---were worked very well with American Gods because it's exactly consistent with the novels notion of Gods adapting to contemporary America.

As to Preacher and Tulip... once again I mentioned that I thought there was potential for the changes in the character and Ruth Negga's casting! It's the showrunner's changes from the dynamic of those characters from the books that diminish the dynamic between them. It's inconsistent with the triangulation of Jesse's motivations when he was tugged between Tulip and Cassidy. That was a consequence of the Showrunners' choices to signal their SJW virtue by expanding Tulip to be more self-assured and independent and to turn Cassidy into a simpering, dependent, doting old vampire dad.

That's why I mentioned American Gods in the first place. Whereas the changes to American Gods made the show more interesting because it preserved the integrity of the themes that made the novel compelling, Preacher dabbled with the structural dynamics that drove much of the character drama from the books, all for gratuitous SJW virtue-signalling and to the detriment of the product.

And yeah, unless Tulip STAYS DEAD, she's still a fucking Mary Sue. Lemme know if that happens.

Tarisk · Aug 22, 2018

khorum said:
No idiot, I mentioned turning techboy into a 4chan bro was an example of a GOOD adaptation, despite whatever motivations there were. Same with Media. Even Vulcan---who wasn't in the books at all and was totally an SJW jab at American NRA gun culture---were worked very well with American Gods because it's exactly consistent with the novels notion of Gods adapting to contemporary America.

As to Preacher and Tulip... once again I mentioned that I thought there was potential for the changes in the character and Ruth Negga's casting! It's the showrunner's changes from the dynamic of those characters from the books that diminish the dynamic between them. It's inconsistent with the triangulation of Jesse's motivations when he was tugged between Tulip and Cassidy. That was a consequence of the Showrunners' choices to signal their SJW virtue by expanding Tulip to be more self-assured and independent and to turn Cassidy into a simpering, dependent, doting old vampire dad.

That's why I mentioned American Gods in the first place. Whereas the changes to American Gods made the show more interesting because it preserved the integrity of the themes that made the novel compelling, Preacher dabbled with the structural dynamics that drove much of the character drama from the books, all for gratuitous SJW virtue-signalling and to the detriment of the product.

And yeah, unless Tulip STAYS DEAD, she's still a fucking Mary Sue. Lemme know if that happens.

So maybe we're just not there yet. Ruth Negga almost quit the show once. No reason the character still can't be permakilled.

But maybe we're all misunderstanding you on a different level. From your praise of American Gods, you seem to prefer scenes of two indian dudes plowing eachother over an entertaining, attractive woman kicking ass, because her not being dead or in a kitchen making sammiches is far more offensive.

khorum · Aug 22, 2018

Tarisk said:
Lol, this shit 100% deserves a Worf. We're right back to square one with this post. You are sounding like the MAGA version of an SJW extremist with this shit. You have this paranoia that making a female character independant is some evil SJW plot and not just a creative decision made for the adaptation (I'll take a page from your book and repeat myself here - Tulip really isn't as bulletproof as you hype her up to be, she still gets in trouble, fucks up. has the O'hare curse, even has God trusting her to fuck up) She's if anything, always making it WORSE for Jesse. (shooting Starr when Jesse was about to get his soul back), having the wrong brief case in a recent episode (but you don't watch anymore, but still infect these threads with your own REE'ing about REE'ing, right?)
.

Nope, square one of this argument was Soygen asking me how I felt the adaptation from the comic had gone SJW. I responded to your post right below his since it was more or less along those lines. I answered your questions....and I'm still answering them.

That "paranoia" about empowered female characters is from

Alex 's butthurt explosion, because he couldn't stand dissenting opinions in HIS TV THREAD laaawl. But like I've said repeatedly, it wasn't JUST that they flipped the roles on Tulip, but they did it lazily and for gratuitous SJW reasons and the show shittier for it. Honestly Cassidy as a character suffers more for it, and I loved Joe Gilgun since the Misfits. Whatever they're doing to Tulip now, I'd be surprised if she really STAYS dead. It shouldn't be much of a shocker that killing her off now would be an unlikely detraction from the novels.

As to why I keep posting in this thread? Well, it works like this: I get this red exclamation icon on the top right of the this webpage. It says someone responded to my posts or referred to me somewhere.... I click it and respond.

khorum · Aug 22, 2018

Tarisk said:
So maybe we're just not there yet. Ruth Negga almost quit the show once.

But maybe we're all misunderstanding you on a different level. From your praise of American Gods, you seem to prefer scenes of two indian dudes plowing eachother over an entertaining, attractive woman kicking ass, because her not being dead or in a kitchen making sammiches is far more offensive.

Ooooh you're gonna be an internet badass now?

Once again, I felt negga's casting was promising and at first I was excited with her Tulip. But flipping the dynamic with her being the callous badass and Cassidy being the simpering, self-doubting co-dependent is lazy and boring and the show absolutely suffers from the changes to those characters... and they were done for gratuitously SJW reasons much like the gay Ifrit in American Gods. But it WORKS in American Gods because it's consistent with that show.

Tarisk · Aug 22, 2018

khorum said:
As to why I keep posting in this thread? Well, it works like this: I get this red exclamation icon on the top right of the this webpage. It says someone responded to my posts or referred to me somewhere.... I click it and respond.

Oh cmon, we both know that isn't what I meant. Why are you even posting here to begin with? You just jumped in after people were praising the show with

khorum said:
This adaptation is fucking garbage. Seth Rogen and his SJW shit should never have been involved.

Just put it out of its misery.

Because, that garbage red exclamation excuse for your involvement certainly doesn't apply there. Sure, now it does, I'm doing it too for the same reasons.

But doesn't it seem out of place to come in with that, if you supposedly stopped watching the show?

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