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DickTrickle

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It's really not worth delving too deeply here because it's clear fundamental terminology and definitions are going to take too much work to bridge. You really think Islam is left wing or that any social control is ipso facto left wing. That's too much work. Screamfeeder has the stamina for it, not me.

But yeah, when it comes to classifying motivations, it makes sense to look at what the perpetrators think and feel, not unintended consequences of their actions that might not align with their goals. People do shit all the time that undermines their goals and interests. I don't know that McVeigh, though, really thought his actions would bring about more freedoms; it seemed more motivated by a misplaced sense of revenge.

If people are constantly thinking "false flag" because things don't always align like a well written Hollywood story, they're probably ignorant.
 
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iannis

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Is there a question that McVeigh was a good ol boy? There shouldn't be. He was.

So was Eric rudolph.
 
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Screamfeeder

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How is Islam right wing?

Right wing is typically associated with "Small Government", right?

No. YOU might think it is, but it is not at all associated with "Small Government".

Right-Wing can mean MANY different things. In the United States and most western governments, it is associated with conservatism (as again defined by Western Civ), nationalist ideology, traditionalism, religious traditionalist(and religious fundamentalism [this is important for your Islam comment so pay attention later]), classical economic liberals and totalitarianism fascism (not to be confused with totalitarianism communism).

For example, I am for a smaller, more efficient military. By that one view alone, I am for a "smaller government". But as soon as I say, "trim down the military", I am not lambasted by the left wing, I am lambasted by the right wing. So the right wing is for certain parts of the government to be smaller. Do you want more DEA agents or more treatment facilities? Well, now both sides are arguing for BIGGER government, but in different capacities.

Right wing is associated with religion in general, it just so happens that you happen to live inside of a Right Wing dominated Christian exemption state your entire life, so you can't see that it's an exception at all. Those living under Islamic rule see the same thing. Religious rules and order intertwined with the fabric of the social order are a part of Right-Wing Ideology.

Abortion rights, same-sex marriage rights, contraception and the basic ideals behind evolution are all Right-Wing Ideals. Those ideals fall directly in line whether we are talking about Islam or Christianity.

So yes, Islam is a right wing ideology. Both in practice and in theory.


I mean if we take the pure part of government, most islamic governments are totalitarian and while totalitarian is not a "Left Wing" desire, big government with strong social control is one of their goals.

First off, you have to define what you mean by "pure part of government". YOU might have some idea of what that means and it might diametrically opposed to what your neighbor thinks "pure government" means.

What do you mean by a "pure part of government"? A "pure government" to me is simply any group of people that got together and said "Yo, these are our rules. You want in, follow this shit." and who have the means to enforce those rules. I might find those rules bad, amoral and wrong, but that is still a "pure government". "Government" on it's own doesn't mean good or bad. Nazi Germany was a government. The DPRK is a government. The United States is a government. So you need to define that term before we can move on with the rest of your statement.

Their "Goal" was more freedoms, and the impact is less freedoms as result of their actions.

So while their initial ACTION was "Right Wing" in nature, the long term RESULT is "Left Wing" in nature, hence people calling "False Flag" because of the disconnect between the action and result.
You just displayed a bias here that we have to address. You are stating as fact that Right Wing = More Freedom and Left Wing = Less Freedom. I need you to explain that because when I go back to New Mexico, the state says I cannot smoke weed on the porch of my house, but I CAN shoot coyotes that get their leg mangled in my fence. So which is giving me more and which is giving me less?
 
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GuardianX

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No. YOU might think it is, but it is not at all associated with "Small Government".

Right-Wing can mean MANY different things. In the United States and most western governments, it is associated with conservatism (as again defined by Western Civ), nationalist ideology, traditionalism, religious traditionalist(and religious fundamentalism [this is important for your Islam comment so pay attention later]), classical economic liberals and totalitarianism fascism (not to be confused with totalitarianism communism).

For example, I am for a smaller, more efficient military. By that one view alone, I am for a "smaller government". But as soon as I say, "trim down the military", I am not lambasted by the left wing, I am lambasted by the right wing. So the right wing is for certain parts of the government to be smaller. Do you want more DEA agents or more treatment facilities? Well, now both sides are arguing for BIGGER government, but in different capacities.

Right wing is associated with religion in general, it just so happens that you happen to live inside of a Right Wing dominated Christian exemption state your entire life, so you can't see that it's an exception at all. Those living under Islamic rule see the same thing. Religious rules and order intertwined with the fabric of the social order are a part of Right-Wing Ideology.

Abortion rights, same-sex marriage rights, contraception and the basic ideals behind evolution are all Right-Wing Ideals. Those ideals fall directly in line whether we are talking about Islam or Christianity.

So yes, Islam is a right wing ideology. Both in practice and in theory.

Still processing this trying to decide if you are trolling.
 
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Screamfeeder

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Neither of these replies help elucidate the issue...

THEIR

THEIR

THEIR

You didn't really differentiate between them and you though. WAS the impact more Left Wing, or was it more Right Wing? In your opinion? You keep brushing this line of McVeigh was actually Left Wing without willing to put your own actual thoughts into it. You seem to be hinting that it was more Left Wing and thus, they are actually liberals in disguise.

Should have read "Controlling" not "pure".
Ok...So what is a controlling government then? My example still stands. The Government controls what I smoke, but not which gun I choose to own. So is that a Left Wing Issue or a Right Wing Issue?

Still processing this trying to decide if you are trolling.
Why? I'm not. It was an honest response to your post? Why retreat to "you're trolling"? Read it again, come up with an answer and type it out.

Or don't.

Doesn't change the fact that you and I are more likely to die violently at the hands of those that follow Right Wing Ideologies than Left Wing Ideologies and my numbers support it. This was the core issue. If you're going off into other areas has made you confused, then I am not sure what to tell you.
 
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GuardianX

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The controling government.

Communism -- China

Democratic Republic -- United States

Totalitarian -- Most Islamic Countries

adding onto this, an area has multiple forms of government as you get smaller and smaller but, depending on the quality / ability of the Controlling government, those smaller governments can be fairly powerful.

"A" or "The" "controlling" government simply refers to the government that sits at the top, the internationally recognized government.

It isn't a TYPE of government but, instead, a way of distinguishing who is in control of a localle when you have multiple governments that are all nearly equal in power.
 

Screamfeeder

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State as in "THE STATE" or a certain state?
Well now it gets more fun!

The State of New Mexico says both about my gun or weed smoking rights. I can shoot my gun and NOT smoke weed. The United States says I can shoot my gun, but NOT smoke weed, but I am subject to both Federal and State laws concerning both. So if NM says yes to weed and no to guns, I have to abide by that...maybe. Depends on if the fed takes an interest in what I am doing with either of those activities. Can I currently grow a pot plant in my house for personal consumption and yet also own a fully auto class 3 firearm in NM?

Maybe...

This all sounds so controlling to me...Oh, you replied again!

The controling government.

Communism -- China

Democratic Republic -- United States

Totalitarian -- Most Islamic Countries
Yes, these are terms for those governments.













































McVeigh was still a right wing terrorist and you and I are still more likely to die violently at the hands of a right wing terrorist than a left wing one.
 

GuardianX

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Well now it gets more fun!

You are reading too much into this, I was asking you to clarify if you are talking about:

"THE STATE"


or are you literally talking about the current state you think I live in?
 
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Screamfeeder

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You are reading too much into this, I was asking you to clarify if you are talking about:

"THE STATE"


or are you literally talking about the current state you think I live in?
In that particular instance I was referring to The United States Government. The Federal and not the individual state government.

Also I have no clue what state you live in other than denial.
 
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GuardianX

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No. YOU might think it is, but it is not at all associated with "Small Government".

Right-Wing can mean MANY different things. In the United States and most western governments, it is associated with conservatism (as again defined by Western Civ), nationalist ideology, traditionalism, religious traditionalist(and religious fundamentalism [this is important for your Islam comment so pay attention later]), classical economic liberals and totalitarianism fascism (not to be confused with totalitarianism communism).

For example, I am for a smaller, more efficient military. By that one view alone, I am for a "smaller government". But as soon as I say, "trim down the military", I am not lambasted by the left wing, I am lambasted by the right wing. So the right wing is for certain parts of the government to be smaller. Do you want more DEA agents or more treatment facilities? Well, now both sides are arguing for BIGGER government, but in different capacities.

Right wing is associated with religion in general, it just so happens that you happen to live inside of a Right Wing dominated Christian exemption state your entire life, so you can't see that it's an exception at all. Those living under Islamic rule see the same thing. Religious rules and order intertwined with the fabric of the social order are a part of Right-Wing Ideology.

Abortion rights, same-sex marriage rights, contraception and the basic ideals behind evolution are all Right-Wing Ideals. Those ideals fall directly in line whether we are talking about Islam or Christianity.

So yes, Islam is a right wing ideology. Both in practice and in theory.

Okay so, let me get a clarification on this, if a persons actions are derived from a belief system, ANY belief system really, then their actions qualify as Right Wing?
 
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Screamfeeder

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Okay so, let me get a clarification on this, if a persons actions are derived from a belief system, ANY belief system really, then their actions qualify as Right Wing?
Nope.

Belief system is not religion.

I believe the pilot of my plane had training. I do not believe that Sky Wizard says "no fags".
 

Screamfeeder

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You meant to say "faith system".
Okay so to correct that line I would say:
Nope.

There are plenty of religions that would align with Left Wing political ideologies.

It just so happens that the two largest ones(by FAR), Christianity and Islam happen to align both with each other and with the Western concept of Right Wing political and social views.
 

Screamfeeder

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I should have said two OF the largest...Hinduism is pretty close to Islam...and if you want to get into the political ramifications of Hinduism and how it relates to women's rights, free speech, individualism etc I would be more than happy to take that trip with you.
 

GuardianX

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You meant to say "faith system".

Nope.

There are plenty of religions that would align with Left Wing political ideologies.

It just so happens that the two largest ones(by FAR), Christianity and Islam happen to align both with each other and with the Western concept of Right Wing political and social views.

So when you say:

Right wing is associated with religion in general, it just so happens that you happen to live inside of a Right Wing dominated Christian exemption state your entire life, so you can't see that it's an exception at all. Those living under Islamic rule see the same thing. Religious rules and order intertwined with the fabric of the social order are a part of Right-Wing Ideology.

Abortion rights, same-sex marriage rights, contraception and the basic ideals behind evolution are all Right-Wing Ideals. Those ideals fall directly in line whether we are talking about Islam or Christianity.

Are you talking about these groups being against those topics listed in the last sentence or are you saying that those various topics are right wing in nature?

---

Honest to god it feels like the word is out of touch but still being used. Like it applies to SO many people and groups that contradict one another on many political topics and "Means to an end" that it's strange to see it used in a productive manner. It just seems off to be like, "The OKC Bomber was a right winger and so are Christians." I mean it's basically hearkening back to the argument of "Not all Muslims" that you hear from liberals (the left...?).

Again, it seems like a social tactic rather than a defining label, using it to negatively associate people who disagree with their stance.

Then, based on statements you made and others, I am generally lead to believe that nearly ANY violent action a person takes can be classified as "Right Wing" no matter if their goal was to progress left wing ideology. Once it progresses into the form of action it changes the ideology.
 
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