Star Trek: Picard

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What was infuriating about Janeway was she acted like some hardass but when it came down to conflict she was a pussy. “They’re charging phasers and have raised their shields captain”. “Don’t return fire, we need to show them we’re friends, keep hailing them”. Picard would do the same shit in TNG to be fair.
Janeway would be ice cold, fiery hot, then balanced all in the same episode. That's my only gripe about her.

Janeway towards 7, "Ugh, you dumb drone." *ignores*
"YOU DUMB DRONE HOW DARE YOU!" *hair falls down*
"It's ok, it's all a learning situation." *smiles motherly*

She was generally peacekeeping and diplomatic towards most species unless she needed something from them, or they were The Borg.
 

Phazael

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I haven't seen Voyager in a while but I don't remember Janeway being bad. Severe and shit, but not bad. I'm rewatching that once I'm done with TNG, unless I go for DS9 first since I've never seen that. The actor has been in other things and she was great in them, and she's a really good voice actor as well.

On rewatch of TNG, I don't know what Troi's deal is. Like, she's hot, but not so hot that she got the part on the back of that. She's definitely not a good actor. She seems like an uncomfortable high school drama kid trying to get through her lines without dying so that someone else has to talk, most of the time.
TNG was the first attempt to essentially launch new Trek content that made it on screen (Phase 2 was going to be the first, without Nimoy, but they went with doing movies instead, ultimately) and a lot of the actors were selected with an eye on budget in mind. Most had limited exposure to the public prior to this, with Spiner having a bunch of character actor parts on things like Night Court and Cheers, Stewart being a regular second fiddle in British theatre and period piece/sci fi movies, Burton being in Roots, Frakes being in mostly a bit part guy while working on his directing career, and so on down the line. Pretty much all were budget picks, with Spiner and Stewart ultimately being the ones who were solid actors. Denise Crosby was actually originally high in the running for the Trois part, before losing out to Sirtis, which means if she had sperged out in that role Trois would have gotten gacked and been a footnote instead of a running gag meme. Really, in the early days of TNG it was about getting it off the ground as a purely syndicated series (a new concept at the time) and keeping it cheap enough to avoid cancellation. Thats how you ended up with a lot of no names in major roles.

And yeah Mulgrew is a good actress. I don't know what the fuck happened with Voyager, but its safe to say despite her bitching about certain things (mainly the writers turning it into the 7 and Holodock comedy hour) about the show, I don't think that blame lies with her. That show was a mess, in terms of writing consistency and story lines, which is why Moore said fuck it and moved on. And it did not help that there was such a disparity in experience and ability in the actors on the show, either. You look at who had careers before and after the show from that cast and its really obvious that Picardo (and to a lesser extent Ryan) strapped that fucking show on his back to carry all the deadweight.
 

Arbitrary

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If Voyager would have had Garak he would have been in a single episode and that would have been that. That's the difference between DS9 and Voyager. DS9 recognized opportunities and Voyager didn't. Their writers/producers/directors/whatever just weren't very good so you got a lot of episodes that weren't very good.
 
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Frenzied Wombat

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Yeah but I gotta say if I think of the top 20 trek episodes ever, the lion’s share would be taken by TOS and Voyager, followed by DS9.

voyager had many shit tier episodes, but when they were on point, they could be amazing. The episode with the Doctor along with his holowimp counterpart on the Star fleet ship taken over by Romulans, and the time warp episode where they run into what looks like a Star Trek II era federation ship at war for example.

I guess it comes down to whether you value consistency or diamond’s in the rough.
 

Arbitrary

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Alternate future Harry Kim trying to fix the destruction of the ship is one of my absolute favorite episodes of any series. That is just such a wonderfully dark little episode and proof positive that Harry didn't have to be fucking awful.

But Voyager's stinkers do stink.
 
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chaos

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What was infuriating about Janeway was she acted like some hardass but when it came down to conflict she was a pussy. “They’re charging phasers and have raised their shields captain”. “Don’t return fire, we need to show them we’re friends, keep hailing them”. Picard would do the same shit in TNG to be fair.
To be fair, thats one of the things that drew me to TNG. Picard is confident in his ship and his capabilities and his crew, and he tries to hold to the sanctity of all life, even androids and weird crystal energy creatures. Plenty of times he could have just smoked some Romulans or whatever. I like the slower pace and morality plays mixed with the sci fi setting, always cool.
 

Phazael

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Thats true and quite honestly there are top tier episodes in all five pre SJWTrek series that rank with the best of Science fiction. Even the normally lean Enterprise had the Through the Mirror Darkly trilogy and Terra Nova. Voyager's best episodes were mostly Doc and 7 centered, but the sleep alien episode and the advanced dinosaurs locked in dogma episodes were brilliantly written and clever. TNG also had arguably three of the best Trek episodes of all time with Best of Both Worlds, Dalmak and Jallad, and Devil's Due which have not really been done before or since. But if I had to pick my top five episodes across the franchise, it would go something like this:
1) City on the Edge of Forever- All time classic hit you in the feels sci-fi.
2) Pale Moon Light- No explanation needed.
3) Balance of Terror- Really a classic submarine movie that established the Romulans for all time (ST2 battle of Mutara Nebula was modelled heavily after this episode)
4) The Corbomite Manuever- Classic story telling of exploration, moral choice, and Kirk just being smart that actually made fun of technobabble in certain ways.
5) Seige of AR-558- The very best critique of human nature made by Quark of all people and confronting the horrors of war vs gung ho patriotism.
 
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moonarchia

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Voyager and Enterprise were on the dumpster fire UPN network, too. That meant lower viewers and lower revenue.
 

Phazael

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To be fair, thats one of the things that drew me to TNG. Picard is confident in his ship and his capabilities and his crew, and he tries to hold to the sanctity of all life, even androids and weird crystal energy creatures. Plenty of times he could have just smoked some Romulans or whatever. I like the slower pace and morality plays mixed with the sci fi setting, always cool.

Not something they have overtly touched on, but each captain largely had different types of status within Starfleet and it impacted how they behaved (usually).

Kirk- Early era Horatio Hornblower maverick captain. Moral, but would break the rules and likely hated by his superiors despite his successes. Major horndog, as well.
Picard- Captain of the Federation Flagship and primarily a diplomat and historian, so he always approached problems in cerebral terms. Got darker after being Borgified.
Cisco- Had a promising career start before his wife got killed at Wolf 359 and got routed to what was at the time a shit assignment. Overcame that and was a badass by the end.
Janeway- Was supposed to be a scientist background, but somehow got sent to do Maquis cleanup. More distant from her crew than Picard, but a standard captain otherwise.
Archer- More like traditional 1950s era astronauts and focused on exploration until the Xindi War messed with him. Probably the most relatable of the main era captains.
 
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Frenzied Wombat

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Thats true and quite honestly there are top tier episodes in all five pre SJWTrek series that rank with the best of Science fiction. Even the normally lean Enterprise had the Through the Mirror Darkly trilogy and Terra Nova. Voyager's best episodes were mostly Doc and 7 centered, but the sleep alien episode and the advanced dinosaurs locked in dogma episodes were brilliantly written and clever. TNG also had arguably three of the best Trek episodes of all time with Best of Both Worlds, Dalmak and Jallad, and Devil's Due which have not really been done before or since. But if I had to pick my top five episodes across the franchise, it would go something like this:
1) City on the Edge of Forever- All time classic hit you in the feels sci-fi.
2) Pale Moon Light- No explanation needed.
3) Balance of Terror- Really a classic submarine movie that established the Romulans for all time (ST2 battle of Mutara Nebula was modelled heavily after this episode)
4) The Corbomite Manuever- Classic story telling of exploration, moral choice, and Kirk just being smart that actually made fun of technobabble in certain ways.
5) Seige of AR-558- The very best critique of human nature made by Quark of all people and confronting the horrors of war vs gung ho patriotism.

I have to throw Mirror Mirror, Space Seed, and the Doomsday Machine onto that list, but there are just so many great TOS episodes.
 
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pysek

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The main reason Enterprise died too soon was the rumor was Jeffery "Brunt/Weyoun" Combs was gonna finally be given main cast status as the Andorian captain. RIP Jeffrey's steady paycheck.

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Cybsled

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Ya, Shran was going to join the crew if the series wasn’t cancelled, which would have been fantastic, since it would have added some more much needed personality and also let them dive more into Andorion lore.

They seemed to be semi self-aware of inconsistent Janeway in the episode where 700 years in the future, that museum tries to recreate what Voyager was. There was a scene where she is like “open fire”, then half a second later she is telling them to hail the vessel. The episode was super fun with Evil Voyager and the Doctor gets all pissed at how much they got wrong.
 

Phazael

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Yeah that guy was always a great actor. Did a ton of schlocky Cthulhu type movies back in the day, but always acted his ass off in them. Fucking shame his career never took off.

Frenzied Wombat Frenzied Wombat
Yeah agree totally with those as great episodes and all are in my top ten list of trek. Its really down to personal preference when you narrow down hundreds of episodes to a handful of favorites. Space Seed had some cheese, but god damn Montleban could act and the idea of the Eugenics War was awesome at the time, even if they picked the 1990s for it to happen in LOL. Mirror Mirror became something of a meme creating the entire idea of evil universes for mainstream sci-fi, but it it was such a fun episode (as was through the mirror darkly in Enterprise).
 

Phazael

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Ya, Shran was going to join the crew if the series wasn’t cancelled, which would have been fantastic, since it would have added some more much needed personality and also let them dive more into Andorion lore.

They seemed to be semi self-aware of inconsistent Janeway in the episode where 700 years in the future, that museum tries to recreate what Voyager was. There was a scene where she is like “open fire”, then half a second later she is telling them to hail the vessel. The episode was super fun with Evil Voyager and the Doctor gets all pissed at how much they got wrong.
Yeah if I had to pick a favorite Voyager episode, the museum one would be it. Such a great story about how history gets politically distorted with lots of subtexts to it. And of course Picardo acted his ass off in that one, too.
 
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Arbitrary

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There is a very high probability that the marathon that Mike says is what hooked him on TNG is the exact same one that I saw that hooked me on TNG (given time period and geography) and for the exact same reason, seeing The Best of Both Worlds part one and two.
 

lurkingdirk

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Oh man. Not even close.

View attachment 290020

Well, I don't think she was so bad an actress, but I always wanted to punch the character in the mouth. She's just a bitch all the damned time. I think your hatred of the character is clouding your judgement.

I haven't seen Voyager in a while but I don't remember Janeway being bad. Severe and shit, but not bad. I'm rewatching that once I'm done with TNG, unless I go for DS9 first since I've never seen that. The actor has been in other things and she was great in them, and she's a really good voice actor as well.

On rewatch of TNG, I don't know what Troi's deal is. Like, she's hot, but not so hot that she got the part on the back of that. She's definitely not a good actor. She seems like an uncomfortable high school drama kid trying to get through her lines without dying so that someone else has to talk, most of the time.

Oh, man. I wish I could watch DS9 for the first time again. It is a different kind of Trek. It gets dark. Really dark. And it's the Federation at war, which is new and interesting. I think you'll enjoy it.
 
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Deathwing

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There is a very high probability that the marathon that Mike says is what hooked him on TNG is the exact same one that I saw that hooked me on TNG (given time period and geography) and for the exact same reason, seeing The Best of Both Worlds part one and two.
So, you're saying you're Rich Evans?
 

chaos

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This is fucking awesome.

No one ever talks about the ethics of Starfleet forcing Riker to craft a case he doesn't believe against his colleague and friend, especially about something so incredibly important. That's insane. Imagine if he'd lost and that quack doctor had fucking fried Data's memory core or whatever nonsense they make up, then Riker has to deal with the fallout of his case condemning his friend to death at the hands of a Starfleet HQ. Shit's crazy.