The Division 2

Leadsalad

Cis-XYite-Nationalist
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Got into an argument on the PTS forums last night, discussing the endless extended mag debate. Guy I'm arguing with drops this gem:

"in ARs,+30 rounds mag is literally doubling your DPS for free"

I'm amazed people this stupid can manage to even find the power button on their PC.
Well, dps is a metric, that without context, is completely meaningless.

We should be measuring in dpm because of reloads factoring into how much time we can spend shooting at a target.

My napkin math is saying that the original +30 / -10% rof was around a 20% increase in dpm.
 

Raes

Vyemm Raider
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Well, dps is a metric, that without context, is completely meaningless.

We should be measuring in dpm because of reloads factoring into how much time we can spend shooting at a target.

My napkin math is saying that the original +30 / -10% rof was around a 20% increase in dpm.

And the -10% RoF could be offset with Allegro. In addition, there are variables like base weapon reload speed, how much reduced reload speed you have from mods/talents and RoF which can range from 600-990 RPM. Also, even DPM doesn't really account for actual combat. Shooting/reloading nonstop in the shooting range (or doing that math that way) is one thing, that never actually happens in combat in the game.

The idiot in question thinks that the entire game difficulty is based around AR max clip size, which is why he thinks 60 round mags are bad. Which is absurd. I've tried various way of explaining this to him. I also pointed out (and was ignored) that both before and after the extended mag nerf you could/can have a 60 round AR mag. I even pointed out the dual LMG build that uses a sawed-off and Fillerup to reload both 100 round clips. He just ignores all that and starts ranting about Div1 and magsize metas and blah blah. I gave up.
 

Raes

Vyemm Raider
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SOTG had some actual good info. Yanked these notes off Reddit:


  • Drops will now be at your average GS or above. Purple drops cap at 490, high end at 500.
  • Recalibration changed to allow higher ceilings on transferred stats (higher caps). What this means is that you will more likely be able to transfer the "full" amount of your infused attribute. However, recalibration will no longer raise gear score. Instead it will raise "recalibration score".
  • There will be "other sources" of 515 gear (not just DZ). (They didn't say what that would be or when.)
  • Adding Blue / Purple mod blueprints - you can buy from the crafting vendor.
  • Blueprints: there will now be a weekly project from each settlement that will reward a blueprint, as well as a single daily project each day.
  • There will be an increased chance for ammo drops when you are low
  • You will be able to carry more (grey) crafting materials. 600 instead of 400.
  • Hard Wired crafted gear will now be 480+ (instead of 460+).
  • Edit: There was also a discussion of a new type of skill mod (battery?) that you could put into something like your turret to increase the ability to use other mods on that skill. But I didn't understand it enough to explain it properly.
 

Vorph

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
10,996
4,721
That's the worst thing about apologists, not only do they play devil's advocate in every argument, but they also manage to simultaneously be condescending and retarded about it. It's like arguing with a sjw, as soon as you try to push back against their shit, they pull out the spoiled-entitled-toxic trifecta.

_____________

Recalibration still won't be even partly fixed until you can change colors, and ideally swap active/ passive talents. Also the new system massively favors items that drop with the correct talent and one stat you don't care about super low so you can use the full recal on it. I don't think it's ever going to be fun/bearable to grind gear unless they rethink it or allow you to change both a stat and a talent.

Hard Wired fix isn't even remotely good enough either.

Those changes are pts, or for this weeks patch?
 
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Raes

Vyemm Raider
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Just PTS. No dates on when anything is going live. I would hope by next week? There's just no fucking reason to log in until this update hits. Plus, it NEEDS to go in BEFORE the damn raid, not in the same patch.
 

ver_21

Molten Core Raider
975
-361
Oh good I'm not the only person.... I dont even know what to do with this mission, just let it eventually go away?


I wish I knew. I completed it a second time thinking I might get extra apparel keys or something, but there didn't seem to be any benefit.
 

Hosix

All labs matter!
4,737
6,642
Just PTS. No dates on when anything is going live. I would hope by next week? There's just no fucking reason to log in until this update hits. Plus, it NEEDS to go in BEFORE the damn raid, not in the same patch.

Ya this. Before the raid. I can see this going with the raid and something will be fucked.
 

Raes

Vyemm Raider
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Ya this. Before the raid. I can see this going with the raid and something will be fucked.

Yup. Also would like a bit of time to re-gear before the raid with all the changes. And not have to run with weekend warrior pugs that want to run the raid to re-gear, still using their nerfed to shit builds.
 

Torrid

Molten Core Raider
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611
I generally agree with you guys, which is why I haven't been posting here as my opinion has already been expressed by others and my playtime was limited for awhile so I was behind. I however do think the 30 round mag needed a nerf. Also the best mods should be the hardest to get, not found in the early game. Also, IMO, ARs are clearly the superior weapon class leaving me unwilling to use anything else, and I feel that magazine size should be AR's drawback. Every time I play this game, I wonder why SMGs exist at all. They need the large magazine size increase, not ARs, from what I can tell.

This game tries to force people to use a single weapon due to the way stats and exotic holster perks work, so people end up using the general purpose one. I have like 40% AR damage, which does nothing for my 2nd weapon. My AR works well from 1m to 50m and ARs seem to have the highest dmg/time of all weapon classes? I was puzzled by all this until I tried playing with a controller because of my wrist tendonitis (how the fuck do people play shooters with controllers? god. I can't even do lvl1 control points with it) and not being able to easily compensate for recoil on consoles is the single reason I can think of why ARs are so good. What am I missing?
 

Raes

Vyemm Raider
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I generally agree with you guys, which is why I haven't been posting here as my opinion has already been expressed by others and my playtime was limited for awhile so I was behind. I however do think the 30 round mag needed a nerf. Also the best mods should be the hardest to get, not found in the early game. Also, IMO, ARs are clearly the superior weapon class leaving me unwilling to use anything else, and I feel that magazine size should be AR's drawback. Every time I play this game, I wonder why SMGs exist at all. They need the large magazine size increase, not ARs, from what I can tell.

This game tries to force people to use a single weapon due to the way stats and exotic holster perks work, so people end up using the general purpose one. I have like 40% AR damage, which does nothing for my 2nd weapon. My AR works well from 1m to 50m and ARs seem to have the highest dmg/time of all weapon classes? I was puzzled by all this until I tried playing with a controller because of my wrist tendonitis (how the fuck do people play shooters with controllers? god. I can't even do lvl1 control points with it) and not being able to easily compensate for recoil on consoles is the single reason I can think of why ARs are so good. What am I missing?



Edit: Also feel the need to add, again, you can still have a 60 round clip. My AK does, since I have the 7.62 +20 mag and mag cap. You can no longer have 72 round clips. Now you want middle talent mag capacity instead of Allegro, if you want 60 rounds. With the changes coming, I'll have the 5.56 +20 mag soon too. 60 Rounds. I'm too tired of having the AR argument yet again, so I'll leave that to someone else.
 
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Vorph

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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ARs are great if you have all of the gear fully optimized for the crit build. I still laugh every time I see someone try to shoehorn an AR into a LMG (Unstoppable Force) build though, and that's the current meta build these days. ARs have nothing at all comparable to Unhinged, do way less damage overall, and give up the single best part of the LMG build which is having infinite ammo. I don't even use the double LMG setup either; just 1 LMG, 1 Tactical Vector 9, and Liberty. I think it's considerably faster to swap to SMG and dump 19 bullets in less than a second, plus I get the holstered Liberty perk that constantly refills my LMG while hosing down a big chungus dude.

Post-patch, ARs are dead imo. There's no build without both Berserk and Strained, at least not compared to the LMG build which is still almost untouched by the nerf sledgehammer.

As for the mag size thing, do some people not realize that there's a +35 round belt for the LMG? With both that and Extra you can have 162 bullets, though personally I'd prefer 135 and just keep Allegro on my M60. Either way, an AR having access to 72 round mags was no big deal, especially not when the downside to it back then cost you 10% RoF (or you kept base RoF and only had a 60 round mag).

how the fuck do people play shooters with controllers? god. I can't even do lvl1 control points with it
Years of practice. M/K would be easier for most guns, sure, but I'm not convinced it would make much difference at all for LMGs. Just doesn't seem predictable like other guns' recoil.
 

Torrid

Molten Core Raider
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611
Interesting. I wasn't aware of the infinite ammo trick. Actually I don't think I've gotten a weapon with unhinged or even frenzy yet (certainly not recently) for some reason, and my hours played is 192. Although I spent much (half?) of that time re-leveling other characters and farming level 19 mods because I'm playing with a friend who had low play time and I didn't want to advance without him.

The problem as I saw it is that the +30 mag was a must-use mod and any AR that couldn't use it was unusable. After the nerf I was able to use FAMAS without feeling like I was being stupid. Also how early and easily obtainable it was. When re-leveling I was trying different weapons but just went back to the police M4 because everything else felt significantly worse, even after the mag nerf. If ARs needed more mag capacity, it should probably partially be innate with mods granting less instead of a single mod doubling capacity.

The reason I don't like LMGs personally is the low accuracy. Headshot damage is so goddamn high that it's a huge DPS increase to land them, so accuracy translates to DPS. Also I'd just assume kill stuff from farther away. (I loved MK17s at the start before I tried accurate ARs) Although I certainly prefer LMGs when confronted by multiple mobs charging at me from the same direction from a fairly close distance, but that's too situational for me to want to switch to it.

I'll have to play around with a vector. All SMGs seemed worse than ARs in every respect when I tried them (or just looking at the numbers), but perhaps I was using the bad ones.

I think part of the problem is that sharpshooter talents are so clearly superior to the others. I'd probably value the infinite ammo trick more or LMGs in general if I didn't have -30% reload speed and extra head damage. Although I'd probably argue that entire weapon classes shouldn't be balanced around that trick.
 

Vorph

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Interesting. I wasn't aware of the infinite ammo trick. Actually I don't think I've gotten a weapon with unhinged or even frenzy yet (certainly not recently) for some reason, and my hours played is 192. Although I spent much (half?) of that time re-leveling other characters and farming level 19 mods because I'm playing with a friend who had low play time and I didn't want to advance without him.
I've never seen a Frenzy drop either, but I'd never use it anyway because of the <4B restriction. Unhinged is really common though, I get it on so many of my LMG drops that I don't even keep them all for recalibration anymore.

The problem as I saw it is that the +30 mag was a must-use mod and any AR that couldn't use it was unusable. After the nerf I was able to use FAMAS without feeling like I was being stupid. Also how early and easily obtainable it was. When re-leveling I was trying different weapons but just went back to the police M4 because everything else felt significantly worse, even after the mag nerf. If ARs needed more mag capacity, it should probably partially be innate with mods granting less instead of a single mod doubling capacity.
Extended mags are very strong but it's not like there's any competition in that slot when other mag mods are all junk even compared to just +10 rounds... so of course everyone wants the +20 ones now and most people dislike the nerf from +30 to +20 even if the change from -RoF to -reload speed mitigates it somewhat. It's a Division thing imo. ARs were used by the vast majority of players in Div 1, and we all had mags that held ~67 rounds. Changing that in Div 2 just feels wrong. It didn't just hurt ARs either; before the WT4 patch I used a rifle as my secondary and having 60 rounds in a pre-nerf Mk17 was great. Now with all the nerfs the entire rifle class is underwhelming and in dire need of an across the board buff.

FAMAS is a poorly designed gun as soon as you get to content where it can't kill before reloading. It has a decent damage increase, but not anywhere near large enough to account for the missing mag slot, and it has awkward (non-vertical) recoil compared to the other laser-accurate ARs. It's not entirely the extended mag's fault though; the F2000 is kind of shitty due to arbitrarily missing a rail slot and the loss of 5-7% chc there. People avoid using the Classic M60 because it's missing a barrel slot too.

The reason I don't like LMGs personally is the low accuracy. Headshot damage is so goddamn high that it's a huge DPS increase to land them, so accuracy translates to DPS. Also I'd just assume kill stuff from farther away. (I loved MK17s at the start before I tried accurate ARs) Although I certainly prefer LMGs when confronted by multiple mobs charging at me from the same direction from a fairly close distance, but that's too situational for me to want to switch to it.
You just have to play LMGs entirely different from how you'd play other builds. HSD is just for MMRs imo, maybe rifles but I still don't see much point in using a rifle at all now. They mostly build around something like 10-14/2/x though, which is not a style of build I would ever use, especially not when I only play solo. ARs are all about crits (RIP after update 3), and LMGs are all about massively stacking raw damage. Sitting far away and killing things while you and them are both hiding in cover makes for really slow clearing. I prefer to run through missions on hard or challenging only entering cover when absolutely necessary so I can clear most of them in 10-15 minutes tops. The LMG build excels at this. Don't really need accuracy since you get up close and the reticule tightens on its own anyway, so I just max the stability bar and call it good enough.

I'll have to play around with a vector. All SMGs seemed worse than ARs in every respect when I tried them (or just looking at the numbers), but perhaps I was using the bad ones.
My Vector is strictly set up for swapping to it then immediately dumping the entire mag in under a second. I can sometimes get a (red) kill with it, but that's not its purpose. It has Allegro on the gun, and reload speed mods on the sight and magazine. The reload is so fast that I can start the swap back to my LMG almost immediately after the bar starts to fill and I'll still have full ammo on the LMG when I change back, thanks to Fill'er Up. When I play my AR build, the only SMG I use with it is Chatterbox for the proc. I used tp carry a Vector and swap to it to kill enemies that got inside the 10m range where ARs cannot crit, but I would get killed due to emptying the mag without getting a kill just as often as I would get killed trying to use the AR without being able to heal with Clutch. Personally I think the >10m restriction is retarded and it's one of the main reasons I stopped playing my AR build.

I think part of the problem is that sharpshooter talents are so clearly superior to the others. I'd probably value the infinite ammo trick more or LMGs in general if I didn't have -30% reload speed and extra head damage. Although I'd probably argue that entire weapon classes shouldn't be balanced around that trick.
I use Sharpshooter with ARs because HSD + stability + reload speed is far better than just getting AR dmg from Survivalist. Don't need any of those things with a LMG build though, so Demo is the obvious choice. Especially since the grenade launcher is still miles ahead of the other two spec weapons.
 
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Raes

Vyemm Raider
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Wow, this is so sad it's funny. Last night's maintenance included a supposed fix for the new long loading/connecting times issue. Not only did it not work but people are saying it's actually taking longer. WTF.
 
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mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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Yeah I had a awesome AK-74 LMG variant with frenzy on it. The problem was the 4 blue bullshit req on it like Vorph Vorph pointed out which meant I could not run any defensive/self heal shit at all. But god damn that thing was a DPS machine when I tried it.
 

Torrid

Molten Core Raider
926
611
I think that the recent HP nerf was a large boost to AR builds. With ARs you pop a mob and reload while acquiring a new target, so the reload is less noticed. If the content is very bullet spongey, then it highly favors LMGs. Post-nerf the end game is more like the 1-30 game.

Most of my WT5 experience is recent. I did do a level 4 CP with bad gear before the nerf once and it was painful, forcing me to use LMGs simply because I ran out of ammo. Now we're cruising through challenging missions wondering if we forgot to set the difficulty. I'm not even running a crit build, just stacking weapon damage and using Ranger. I really hope they don't reduce HP further.
 

Raes

Vyemm Raider
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PTS updated. UF finally got a nerf, 2% dmg for 25k armor now. Berserk only requires 6 reds, Patience only 6 blues. Safeguard un-nerfed but still requires 4 reds or less. There's a free crafting material cache on the vendor.

Full list on reddit.

There's also a stat screen that you can see after a mission. Ignore the accuracy stat, it's PTS and solo hard is a cakewalk now so I wasn't exactly trying hard. One issue is that pulling up the stat screen (i think this is what did it) dropped my FPS to the teens and it stayed that way, I had to log out.

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