The E-cig Thread

Izo_sl said:

Yes, shame on me for caring about humanity and not taking one study as the absolute truth. Curses!

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Yeah, you're a fucking Saint.

Tuco_sl said:

I get what you're saying about ecigs not being properly studied yet, but do you have any evidence or reason to believe that they're nearly as harmful as cigarettes? I'm not trying to make an argument from ignorance but as a layman it seems like if you laid out the top ten reasons why cigarettes are harmful you'd only be able to apply one of them to ecigs.

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As with any product that delivers medicinal dosages of nicotine, the burden of proof, in this case safety, is on the one making the positive claim. We have yet to see such a thing. As stated previously I'm all for choices, but it must be regulated. This is not a toy, a fruit or a piece of candy. Nicotine is both addictive, carcinogenic and lethal - dosage dependent.
You're making and equivocation fallacy in your ranking and risk assessment - you must compare to placebo to correct for it. They, the reasons, do not carry equal weight and we don't know what new factors are being brought to the equation, especially with regards to long term effects. Again, common sense and anecdotal evidence make a very poor basis for anything.
Finally, efficacy as a smoking cessation tool, risk assessment and nicotine cessation efficacy are separate issues that seem to be conflated a lot by the general public, an in this thread. It's important to know and see the difference

Azrayne_sl said:

The only potential danger I see with ecigs is the solution being unregulated, so technically there could be anything in there. But I'm having a hard time wondering why they'd bother to add anything else to the solution, though I guess there's always accidental contamination. But the odds seem pretty low, compared to just how unhealthy we alreadyknowcigarettes are. It would have to be some really crazy horrible contaminant to make it worse for you than regular smoking already is.

Anyway I'm definitely ordering one in the next week or two. I'm not a heavy chronic smoker, but I enjoy a pack or two a month and e-cigs seem like a healthier and more economic way to take a break from my day and get my nicotine fix.

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It's a major part of the problem, yes - anything could be in them. If I was to inject you with something that might have all sorts of stuff in it besides what I thought was in it, would you consider that sane or healthy? The only people I know who wouldn't care are addicts. Think about it
What odds? You're fractally wrong here, you have no data, and you don't know the dosage. You're doing what we all do in the supermarket, you're making a call without checking data thoroughly - gut feelings. That's not really a solid method for any decision making. You might as well roll a die. People used to think hookahs were safe. We know better now.
You don't have any data or long term studies. How can you make a serious call here? Simply because one does not have the imagination or knowledge of what causes disease does not mean it cannot be harmful. Combine with unregulated market, money talks bs walks, China and other fantastic places of origin. Google Thalidomide and pregnancy for an example of an unforeseen effect that common sense and gut feelings did nothing for.

We've been over this before. What seems healthier is not always so. You seem to be in denial about this, yet you're very clear on wanting an addictive substance, nicotine, for recreational usage. We're thus not talking smoking or cessation. You're moving the wrong way in anticipation of abuse. That's not helping you to stay clean

Izo_sl said:

You're conflating my poking at mkopec with my general interest in this thread.
You're asserting a use without backing it up or linking. How can I possibly argue with you then? Anecdotal evidence or common sense does not cary much weight.

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So you're a Doctor? what field? and since you're so fond of Cochrane's trials, are you familiar with Cochrane's God Complex theories?

Why have you constantly, and consistently dodged both the reason for your interest in the thread (other than the implied "you know more than us because you have a wiki page linked") and nit picking at differences between word usage such as "healthy vs. slightly healthier" and "cessation vs. it might help me quit, while not fucking me up at the same rate."

You'll notice I'm not using big words here, you'll even notice I'm not linking a wiki page -- I just don't have a thesaurus handy at the moment (wait, I'm on the internet, wut?). There's two reasons, the first of which is because I'm not a doctor, or a researcher, I'm just a smoker, the target audience if you will, the willing victim. The second of which is because there just isn't enough study done on vaping at the moment, and I've got to wonder why that is. I'd assume that it's mostly corporate, a little bit government and a shit load of paranoia if a study gets done finds it's good to go then 10 years later all vapers get super powers and the world ends in spectacular fashion.

I also wonder if the study is not being done because of professional smart people (read: doctors like yourself) that refuse to believe that it is possible for vaping to be safer than smoking, both for the general public and for the user. I'm thinking you'd rather just have another axe to grind and another infallible statement to mock us from on high.

He's not a doctor, he's a douchebag. But they both start with D, so you can see how he was confused.

Tuco_sl said:

Not a smoker just coming in to say that I really respect smokers who quit or are trying to quit and use ecigs to help them do it.

Also even if ecigs are too new a tech to be fully peer reviewed I haven't seen any evidence that their even remotely as harmful as cigs.

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My girlfriend has been smoke free for almost two months after I bought her a vaporizer. She started at 18mg nicotine vapor and is all the way down to 4mg. Soon she'll be at 0mg and then she won't even need the vaporizer a few weeks after that.

I've first hand seen my bosses and my girlfriend quit with vaporizers after years of smoking and nothing else working. While they're probably still dangerous they're not as dangerous and since they only release vapor and no smoke (nothing burns) they're definitely safer for me to be around. I think they're great. I just bought my mom one the other day and I'm hoping she has success with it too.

Izo_sl said:

Coupling this with existing tested and documented smoking cessation devices makes it hard to recommend something with unknown long term effects. That's all I'm saying, Sabbat

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No one lives forever. I'd much rather the people I care about quit using e-cigs instead of continue to smoke and get something horrible like lung cancer for sure.

What can be proven is that e-cigs are a lot less harmful than real cigs and for a lot of people, like my girlfriend, nothing else has worked.

Izo_sl said:

That's also an argument against it - it doesn't necesarily make B to C any easier. In fact the feeling it's 'safer' might have the reverse effect and prolong the abuse of nicotine.

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E-cigs allow you to start with a tobacco flavor at a dose of nicotine comparable to the cigarettes you smoke. They then allow you to lower the dosage/flavor as you see fit - all the way to 0mg of nicotine. At that point you're just using it for the mental part of the addiction which becomes easier to get away from since there is no longer a physical addiction.

All the proof I need is seeing people who smoked a ton of cigarettes and tried the gum, the patch, cold turkey and everything else without success quit via e-cig.

Sabbat_sl said:

So you're a Doctor? what field? and since you're so fond of Cochrane's trials, are you familiar with Cochrane's God Complex theories?

Why have you constantly, and consistently dodged both the reason for your interest in the thread (other than the implied "you know more than us because you have a wiki page linked") and nit picking at differences between word usage such as "healthy vs. slightly healthier" and "cessation vs. it might help me quit, while not fucking me up at the same rate."

You'll notice I'm not using big words here, you'll even notice I'm not linking a wiki page -- I just don't have a thesaurus handy at the moment (wait, I'm on the internet, wut?). There's two reasons, the first of which is because I'm not a doctor, or a researcher, I'm just a smoker, the target audience if you will, the willing victim. The second of which is because there just isn't enough study done on vaping at the moment, and I've got to wonder why that is. I'd assume that it's mostly corporate, a little bit government and a shit load of paranoia if a study gets done finds it's good to go then 10 years later all vapers get super powers and the world ends in spectacular fashion.

I also wonder if the study is not being done because of professional smart people (read: doctors like yourself) that refuse to believe that it is possible for vaping to be safer than smoking, both for the general public and for the user. I'm thinking you'd rather just have another axe to grind and another infallible statement to mock us from on high.

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Yes, I'm familiar with the history of Cochrane. I take it you mean it as a jab at my argumentation. I chose to take it as a compliment for all whom err on the side of caution. What you may think of me is irrelevant. All that matters is health. What my background is has little to do with whether nicotine vapors are safer or a solid choice for cessation of smoking or nicotine abuse. I have provided links to evidence based medicine articles and argued that we don't know whether e-cigs are safe or not and whether they are more effective than existing products in nicotine cessation. An argument should be based on more than anecdotal evidence and popularity.

I don't see how being cautious with your health is nitpicking. Ask yourself if vaping is safer than a regular inhaler. It's an equally valid dichotomy as the one you set with cigarettes vs e-cigs. We know what's in a regular inhaler. We don't for the vapor. The claim that a vapor is easier to quit on is anecdotal for now, and does not translate to every user and their progression towards zero nicotine abuse. It's easy to understand the appeal the e-cig has, we've been over that. That doesn't translate to e-cigs being safe or effective - the picture is larger than simply switching. We both want the data, solid 2x blinded RCT en masse, that's no secret and we can both have a view on this until we do.
I don't think it's fair you criticize me for trying to be precise, while also communicating a complex problem. All I asked was you backed up your claims and provide a little something to work with - as I try to do as well
I don't know that there aren't enough study being done. The article posted earlier was ok, albeit many more are needed to have a solid footing. I don't think it's a conspiracy, as you seem to imply. Nicotine is a drug, toxic and carcinogenic, dosage dependent. I don't think it's strange to question a new method of uptake. I also don't know if it's where we should focus all our resources, when we have plenty of alternatives, most are thoroughly tested. Research is expensive, and i know very well of the difficulty in getting funding for research. Not to belittle the vapors, but there are plenty of other mysteries and more pressing research that needs to be done. Regardless, research is being done - there are several studies linked onwww.pubmed.org, some looks interesting
I don't think I'm mocking anyone by arguing for caution when dealing with health. From my perspecive it has nothing to do with refusing to believe anything, quite the contrary. My life revolves around trying to undertand the human body and what affects it. I assure you this is no simple task, nor do I claim to have the single best answer. I would hope we are on the same side in this matter

I'm definitely addicted to the 'action' of smoking, as well as the nicotine. I started using ecigs in 2011, and unfortunately/happily turned it into a hobby.

I've got a number of different ecigs (ego, evic, lavatube, box mod, and 2 mechanicals), and I've been mixing my own liquid for about 6 months now. Quality PG/VG, with nicotine and ~15% flavoring (more info below) - I definitely feel a lot better in the mornings. I can really only compare it to brewing your own beer. Sure, it's not as good as eating carrots and apples, but it's fun and you can take some pride in it.

When I smoked cigarettes I used to wake up with all kinds of shit in my chest, and generally felt like crap. That doesn't happen anymore, no matter how much I vape. I tried an analog cigarette last year, and I can say with confidence I won't be going back. Also, I started with 36mg of nic, and I'm down to 8mg (eventually going to 4mg, and eventually 0mg).

DIY is extremely simple, and it's nowhere near the commitment you need for DIY beer, for example. Pay retail for a little bit so you can get a feel for what's out there, but once you're ready to take it seriously do some research on doing it yourself. I get my PG/VG premixed with nic fromhttp://www.ecigexpress.com/diy-suppl...ine-bases.htmland my flavors fromhttp://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/...l-flavors.aspx.http://www.mtbakervapor.com/electron...arette-flavorsis another option if you want more 'complex' flavorings without the hassle of blending the ratios yourself - Just add PG/VG/Nic, and use ~1 drop of flavor per ml.

Health concerns are a non-issue for me. My body has already told me it's not as actively harmful as smoking cigarettes, but long-term affects are still unknown of course (and I'll readily admit that not vaping is healthier than vaping).

If you've got non-medical questions I'll be happy to answer them. I read quite a bit on the best kits for the money, and I've got a few formulas for mixing good DIY liquids.

Thanks man, but you don't have to cite me.

I wanted to update and mention there are a couple of liquids out there that are the 'holy grail' for vapers, and a couple up-and-coming suppliers doing great things.

For suppliers, I really like what I see from alice in vapeland (https://aliceinvapeland.com/). They run on a limited cycle, and only take a specific number of orders per week - After that they close their doors. The packaging is fantastic, reminiscent of a collector's edition box for video games.

For flavors:
Bobas Bounty (http://www.avejuice.com/BobasBounty) is a unique tobacco-like vape, with caramel, cherry, menthol, etc. This one's a love it or hate it flavor, but this is another vendor that's only open a few hours a day/week depending on demand.

Radiator Pluid (http://www.310vapers.com/radiator-pluid.html) is an absinthe/citrus/secret of the ooze type flavor (because of its rich green color and viscosity). You've really got to be dedicated to get your hands on this, it only goes on sale a couple times a month. Murdock does some of his own extracts for the flavors, but he also gets some extracts from the flavor apprentice (referenced in my previous post). He's also got some newer blends out - 710, and Maha Ras (all out of stock as if 4/28/13).

I'm not affiliated with anyone I've listed, they're just vendors/individuals that I've had some experience with and they stick out in my head as quality suppliers. I wanted to bring this up because there's a whole underground of people that take this shit seriously, and are dedicated to putting out some quality products.

biteablegravy_sl said:

Thanks man, but you don't have to cite me.

I wanted to update and mention there are a couple of liquids out there that are the 'holy grail' for vapers, and a couple up-and-coming suppliers doing great things.

For suppliers, I really like what I see from alice in vapeland (https://aliceinvapeland.com/). They run on a limited cycle, and only take a specific number of orders per week - After that they close their doors. The packaging is fantastic, reminiscent of a collector's edition box for video games.

For flavors:
Bobas Bounty (http://www.avejuice.com/BobasBounty) is a unique tobacco-like vape, with caramel, cherry, menthol, etc. This one's a love it or hate it flavor, but this is another vendor that's only open a few hours a day/week depending on demand.

Radiator Pluid (http://www.310vapers.com/radiator-pluid.html) is an absinthe/citrus/secret of the ooze type flavor (because of its rich green color and viscosity). You've really got to be dedicated to get your hands on this, it only goes on sale a couple times a month. Murdock does some of his own extracts for the flavors, but he also gets some extracts from the flavor apprentice (referenced in my previous post). He's also got some newer blends out - 710, and Maha Ras (all out of stock as if 4/28/13).

I'm not affiliated with anyone I've listed, they're just vendors/individuals that I've had some experience with and they stick out in my head as quality suppliers. I wanted to bring this up because there's a whole underground of people that take this shit seriously, and are dedicated to putting out some quality products.

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Good luck buying anything from 310 or getting your credit card info jacked from ave. Then theres the 3 week waiting for Alice.. I'm not bashin your info at all. Those juices are the ones as you say are the holy grail.

Im more pissed that the quality mechanical mods and liquids are hard to come by. Everything is sold out or you have to do a F5 war. Don't even get me started on the fucking jackasses that buy them just to up sell them on auctions on facebook.

So I went with a Provari and a Sigelei #20 mod for rebuildables.

I think it is going to be hard to ever get any real research done on the benefits of ecigs vs regular cigarettes. The only people who would ever want to do research that would potentially show the benefits are going to be the producers/users of ecigs. The true health nuts are going to avoid calling one "better" than the other because doing so would seem to be a type of endorsement. I think it is like diet sodas versus regular ones. While the diet sodas certainly are never going to qualify as health food, they also lack all of the sugar , calories, and carbs of a regular soda. So if you are the type of person that is going to drink a 2 litre a day regardless, yeah, the diet soda is going to get you a lot less diabetes and fat-assedness. But god forbid you drink diet sodas because of the artificial sweeteners and the blood sugar responses and yadda yadda yadda.

The question wasn't "are diet sodas health foods," the question was "are diet sodas going to make me less disgusting than normal sodas?" Same thing goes for ecigs.
Yeah, no shit, people aren't smoking them to train for the Olympics, but are they at least a better alternative to fucking marlboros? Well, probably. But the types of orgs that do those sorts of peer-reviewed studies aren't going to risk making an accidental "endorsement" either way.

Blu was actually bought by Lorillard last year*, so big tobacco is definitely taking notice.

*http://bizmology.hoovers.com/2012/04...r-135-million/

It might have also been mentioned in this thread, but regulations are incoming for sure. I imagine it might just be a language change from 'tobacco products' to 'nicotine products', which makes sense to me. Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin both have other uses in the food and drug industry, and the flavor extracts are used in baking. The only thing they can reasonably control/regulate is the nicotine IMO. Even then, you still have the option of buying/making zero-nic liquids.

While they are obviously better than regular cigarettes, e-cigarettes are still annoying. Some asshole was using one on the train next to me today and kept blowing huge clouds of vapor on everyone. They still have a smell and I don't want to breathe in whatever shit they put in there. I hope they get banned indoors soon.

I think e-cigs are a good thing for people who are trying to quit (I know a few people who are using them for that purpose) - I just don't think they suddenly make "smoking" in enclosed areas acceptable. Some of them produce a very small amount of vapor, but the guy on the train was blowing out about as much as you'd get from a regular cigarette. I've never seen one like that before.

Tarrant_sl said:

As a non smoker, opinions like this can go fuck themselves. (no offence) One dick does not mean they should be banned indoors. Fuck, you have to cut smokers SOME slack.

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Unfortunately rules are generally made to be made to prevent bad behavior of the worst people. I think that non-smokers have the right to breathe clean air. I don't know what kind of DIY shit people put in their vaporizers, and I shouldn't have to worry about it.