The Elder Scrolls Online

Eh, do we really want to see the riskless "pet tank" as a primary ability? An ancillary part of a class should not be able to supplant an actual class of the preferred type. That isn't emergent gameplay; that is shitty design.

Rezz_sl said:

Eh, do we really want to see the riskless "pet tank" as a primary ability? An ancillary part of a class should not be able to supplant an actual class of the preferred type. That isn't emergent gameplay; that is shitty design.

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It's becoming clear that this dude's opinions are... Pretty bad.

Quaid_sl said:

It's becoming clear that this dude's opinions are... Pretty bad.

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So you are Ok with a pet (non primary focus of class) that doesn't revolve around that ability being able to supplant a PC that is playing their ability to the max?

Keep in mind, that I actually use wording to describe things I deem acceptable and unacceptable. I make no blanket statements unless they are applicable.

Hence my question about having a riskless tank that performs to similar levels as a risk related tank. That is not balance; that is farce.

The mage pet issues of recent EQ come immediately to mind. Or necros in 1999. Take your pick of bad design decisions.

No no. Meant the dude you were replying to.

Anyone with two brain cells to hump together knows any build that nullifies the need for other classes is awful design.

Ummm...

How is playing a tank class in a group with a healer keeping you alive more risky than playing a pet class that specializes in tanking. If the healer lets the tank die, in either situation, the group wipes.

If you are not using active tools to help keep your pet alive, then that is a result of a poorly designed pet class. If a pet tanks as well as a tank, and the pet user provides more dps than a tank, then that is also a poorly designed pet class...

But there is nothing inherently wrong with a tank class wearing cloth armor and scaling his tanking ability off say an INT attribute. It's been done in numerous rpgs successfully...Many video games have had necromancers or geomancers raising golems to stand as a wall shielding them.

How is anyone being nullified... the tank slot in the group is being filled by a "tank class" that just happens to wear cloth armor and his primary contribution to the group is in damage mitigation.

If a pet class is designed as a dps class, and doesn't provide the same level of dps as other dps classes... then that "dps class" is "nullified" by any other dps class wanting the spot. If a pet cannot tank in group level content, then it is just a big visual dot, and not really a "pet", and you've got no reason to bring a mage/necro/summoner/etc over a rogue/wizard

If you're a tank, you're generally not worried about keeping yourself alive, unless you are required to pop cooldowns to survive specific abilities, situational awareness, picking up adds, interrupting spellcasts, positioning the monsters... maintaining aggro...avoiding breaths (or cooldowns to survive them) and aoes (which everyone does) But keeping the tank alive has always been the healer's job. I'm not advocating creating a pet class that can heal as well as a healer, tank as well as a tank AND Dps as well as a DPS, that would be ridiculous. But the EQ mage system of being an inferior wizard in group content isn't really good design.

Draegan_sl said:

Anyone interested in running TESO Junkies as a Site Op? Email:[email protected]/* <![CDATA[ */!function(t,e,r,n,c,a,p){try{t=document.currentScript||function(){for(t=document.getElementsByTagName('script'),e=t.length;e--if(t[e].getAttribute('data-cfhash'))return t[e]}();if(t&&(c=t.previousSibling)){p=t.parentNode;if(a=c.getAttribute('data-cfemail')){for(e='',r='0x'+a.substr(0,2)|0,n=2;a.length-n;n+=2)e+='%'+('0'+('0x'+a.substr(n,2)^r).toString(16)).slice(-2);p.replaceChild(document.createTextNode(decodeURIComponent(e)),c)}p.removeChild(t)}}catch(u){}}()/* ]]> */if interested.

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Utnayan and I should do a 'state of the mmog' column.

IGN pandering to big publishers is nothing new, but those links were hilarious. This game looks disgraceful.

Because there's nothing on this earth more fucking boring than having a bunch of pets kill everything.

edit.. p.s. "Every week, we make sure one of our dungeon test days is Random Build Day," Konkle said. "We'll just try something and see if that works. My favorite one we did recently was all sorcerers, all conjuration. Everyone had two pets and used heal staffs, and so it was just a group pet healing, and you're trying to let the pets do all the action.It was stupidly effective, and I had to nerf the pets as a result, I had to reduce their health. We do that every week. There was the, 'Let's all try stealth, DPS, Nightblade build.' It did not work. It was not effective. I think that's part of the fun.

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Quote from the developer.... What is so wrong with an all pet group... It doesn't conform to whatever holy trinity they are going to implement so they nerf it so that everything is "balanced" and boring? Reminds me of taking away warlock's ability to tank in WoW because it didn't conform to "the vision"

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I think a big part of your problem is that you are assuming from his quote that he made them useless. There's a pretty big margin between 'stupidly effective' and useless.

I'd watch it. I eagerly anticipate the weekly skit, "Dumar complains that yet another game isn't Ultima Online."

Utnayan_sl said:

I also agree with everything Antarius has said in the last two pages.

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It's not specific alarmist garbage. Why wouldn't you agree with it?

Utnayan_sl said:

Posting from my mobile device using swype.

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Where's the caps, bro?

I almost feel like sticking with Swype, just because you guys almost committed suicide from a capital letter. Maybe if Utanyan posts some more moronic falsified information, I'll turn it back on

Blackwulf_sl said:

I think a big part of your problem is that you are assuming from his quote that he made them useless. There's a pretty big margin between 'stupidly effective' and useless.

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Have to put my two cents in regarding this issue, since it is a pet peeve of mine.

Pet classes. I was a mage in EQ. That was a pet class. If the pet died while I tried to solo, I usually died. Pet chaining was difficult, timing based on mobs, etc. In most mmos I have played since, the pet classes are "classes with pets". Where the pets are little more than active dots, them dying does not mean your death, as usually there is more than enough skills left outside of the pet that will keep you alive or even be able to kill the mob. A pet class with a pet that does little to nothing expect deal out a little bit extra damage is not a pet class. A class that can solo without the pet out is not a pet class. IE: Mage in EQ had pets. The pets were used to control/survive the mobs you were fighting. It was a pet class. Necro in EQ had pets, but controlling mobs and survivability came from kiting/snare, not a pet class. Shamans in EQ had pets. Used slow + roots control/kill mobs. Not a pet class.

If there is an intended pet class, and its survivability relies on the pet, that is good class design. Mage groups in EQ were a thing (though preferably with a healer), but the places where it was viable were rare as higher tiered mobs hit much harder than what you could heal the pet for alone. A mage group could, however, chain pets, at which point it became a mana race. However, players should be able to learn the world, and the mobs in it, to where they might be able to utelize their class best. In EQ after PoP you could see necros constantly soloing in the Halls of Heroes or whatever it was called. Kiting. Wizards were AE kiting giants. I could not solo those places effectively as a mage, but I could solo other places. You learned from trying and from getting tips from others in your class. You are X class, Y area is great for you.

Outright nerfing of a class/ability from ONE encounter seems very strange to me, unless every mob in the world is similar, and one fight is the same as the next no matter the mob. That way you would know that if a class ability seemed overpowered against one mob, you know it is so against all of them, but that is not bad class design, that is bad world design.

I do not know the circumstances that led to the nerf or just how overpowered the group actually ways, but again, nerfing based on one expericience seems overboard. If they intend conjuration to be summons, and have pets as the main focus, then rather than nerfing the pets, nerf the actual player abilities to where it becomes a case of pet dying = player dying. From that one dev post alone, I now am fairly certain that this game will do what other games have done. Pets will be simple dots, they take aggro from you, but if you get aggro, it makes little difference.

Nerfing is needed if you have a player with the abilities to survive without a pet at the same time as they have a pet. That is an overpowered class. Nerfing the pet and not the player though is bad design when it comes to even talking about pet classes. So, it does not sound like ESO has a pet class. It has a conjuror with temporary pet dots that also work as a minor CC. In Skyrim you could be a 2h warror with plate + have conjuration at 100 with the Daedra knight or whatever the pet was called + restoration and heal. Pet alone close to oneshot dragons. If ESO even comes close to letting you build up a class with a similar power level then nerfing of a simple pet will do little to fix that.

Closing comments. Know little to nothing about the game other than it is F2P right? So I will try it out eventually. I like running around in Elder Scrolls games.
(edited in some filler examples)

Utnayan_sl said:

/\/\ When did they announce it will be FTP?

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I just assumed. They all are these days This is not one of the games I have been following much, if at all (apparently not at all... ). If it is box cost + sub, then I doubt I will be seeing this game unless I get into beta and am blown away. First dev post I read about the game is about nerfing pets is not a good thing either for my interest

Utnayan_sl said:

So we can listen to more of your shit posting from an alt account? Sounds good.

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Alt accounts? You're still on that schtick?

You need some new material, silly rabbit.

Zehn - Vhex_sl said:

I'd watch it. I eagerly anticipate the weekly skit, "Dumar complains that yet another game isn't Ultima Online."

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I wouldn't complaineveryweek...

Dumar_sl said:

Utnayan and I should do a 'state of the mmog' column.

IGN pandering to big publishers is nothing new, but those links were hilarious. This game looks disgraceful.

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If you want to write a column, email me[email protected]/* <![CDATA[ */!function(t,e,r,n,c,a,p){try{t=document.currentScript||function(){for(t=document.getElementsByTagName('script'),e=t.length;e--if(t[e].getAttribute('data-cfhash'))return t[e]}();if(t&&(c=t.previousSibling)){p=t.parentNode;if(a=c.getAttribute('data-cfemail')){for(e='',r='0x'+a.substr(0,2)|0,n=2;a.length-n;n+=2)e+='%'+('0'+('0x'+a.substr(n,2)^r).toString(16)).slice(-2);p.replaceChild(document.createTextNode(decodeURIComponent(e)),c)}p.removeChild(t)}}catch(u){}}()/* ]]> */and you can contribute to JN.com.