The Zionists are whining thread

Frenzied Wombat

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This pretty much confirms they're just following their larger mission here: Winning the war by slowly taking land. If they continue this path over the next year they will start settling in that 'no man's land', basically creating fresh targets for the Palestinians to hit to start the cycle again.
Well, I guess we'll see after this latest round is over, but creating a buffer zone during a war is pretty standard practice-- if you're in the position of creating one that is. I think it's pretty obvious that this is an operational maneuver, and not an act of appropriating land and permanently claiming it for Israel. That buffer zone allows Israel to get at all the tunnels that cross over the border while trying to minimize the amount of resistance. It would be utterly dumb for them to permanently try and claim that land for a huge numbers of reasons, with the most pragmatic being that they already have huge financial investment in walls, monitoring systems, and border crossings at the current border limit.
 

Tuco

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So in order for the Palestinian conflict to be serious, they need to compete with the losses from WW2? That's some nice logic.
Nobody said that. You stated that Gaza was obliterated as much as Germany was. We instructed you as to why that's an ignorant statement. Now you've come back leading in with a strawman. I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post because it's probably attacking a straw man you created.
 

Beef Supreme_sl

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Nobody said that. You stated that Gaza was obliterated as much as Germany was. We instructed you as to why that's an ignorant statement. Now you've come back leading in with a strawman. I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post because it's probably attacking a straw man you created.
So the open air prison, yearly shelling from IDF artillery and biannual invasion don't amount to anything. Got it.

The point is that while Germany was certainly decimated by the Allies, the Palestinians are in no better of a situation.

Israel to pay students to defend it online

Money well spent.
 

khalid

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Beef Supreme, it isn't too late to just apologize and admit the comparison is absurd. Stop doubling down on your stupid.
 

fanaskin

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Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War CrimesMehdi Hasan

1) The Gaza Strip isn't occupied by Israel

Boston Globe: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones.. now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three." Human Rights Watch: "Israel also continues to control the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, years after it withdrew its ground forces and settlements there." B'Tselem, 2013: "Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967."

2) Israel wants a ceasefire but Hamas doesn't

Al Jazeera: "Meshaal said Hamas wants the 'aggression to stop tomorrow, today, or even this minute. But [Israel must] lift the blockade with guarantees and not as a promise for future negotiations'. He added 'we will not shut the door in the face of any humanitarian ceasefire backed by a real aid programme'." Jerusalem Post: "One day after an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire accepted by Israel, but rejected by Hamas, fell through, the terrorist organization proposed a 10-year end to hostilities in return for its conditions being met by Israel, Channel 2 reported Wednesday.. Hamas's conditions were the release of re-arrested Palestinian prisoners who were let go in the Schalit deal, the opening of Gaza-Israel border crossings in order to allow citizens and goods to pass through, and international supervision of the Gazan seaport in place of the current Israeli blockade." BBC: "Israel's security cabinet has rejected a week-long Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry 'as it stands'."

3) Israel, unlike Hamas, doesn't deliberately target civilians

The Guardian: "It was there that the second [Israeli] shell hit the beach, those firing apparently adjusting their fire to target the fleeing survivors. As it exploded, journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: 'They are only children.'" UN high commissioner for human rights Navi Pillay: "A number of incidents, along with the high number of civilian deaths, belies the [Israeli] claim that all necessary precautions are being taken to protect civilian lives." United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, 2009: "The tactics used by the Israeli armed forces in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. The Mission concludes from a review of the facts on the ground that it.. appears to have been precisely what was put into practice."

4) Only Hamas is guilty of war crimes, not Israel

Human Rights Watch: "Israeli forces may also have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians, such as young boys, and civilian structures, including a hospital - laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes." Amnesty International: "Deliberately attacking a civilian home is a war crime, and the overwhelming scale of destruction of civilian homes, in some cases with entire families inside them, points to a distressing pattern of repeated violations of the laws of war."

5) Hamas use the civilians of Gaza as 'human shields'

Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: "I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields." The Guardian: "In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay." The Independent: "Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields." Reuters, 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields."

6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014

Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."

7) Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel

Jewish Daily Forward: "Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket since [2012 Gaza conflict], and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013." International Crisis Group: "Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.. As Israel (and Egypt) rolled back the 2012 understandings - some of which were implemented spottily at best - so too did Hamas roll back its anti rocket efforts."

8) Hamas provoked Israel by kidnapping and killing three Israeli teenagers

Jewish Daily Forward: "The [Israeli] government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations.. Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren't acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas' Hebron branch -- more a crime family than a clandestine organization -- had a history of acting without the leaders' knowledge, sometimes against their interests." BBC correspondent Jon Donnison: "Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership.. Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government."

9) Hamas rule, not Israel's blockade, is to blame for the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip

US State Department cable: "Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.. Israeli officials have confirmed.. on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge." The Guardian: "The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010, according to files the defence ministry released on Wednesday under a court order.. The Israeli advocacy group Gisha.. waged a long court battle to release the document. Its members say Israel calculated the calorie needs for Gaza's population so as to restrict the quantity of food it allowed in."

10) The Israeli government, unlike Hamas, wants a two-state solution

Times of Israel: "[Netanyahu] made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank.. Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, 'I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.'"

11) All serious analysts agree it was Hamas, and not Israel, that started this current conflict

Nathan Thrall, senior Mid East analyst at the International Crisis Group, writing in the New York Times: "The current escalation in Gaza is a direct result of the choice by Israel and the West to obstruct the implementation of the April 2014 Palestinian reconciliation agreement." Henry Siegman, former national director, American Jewish Congress, writing for Politico: "Israel's assault on Gaza.. was not triggered by Hamas' rockets directed at Israel but by Israel's determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy."
 

Tuco

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So the open air prison, yearly shelling from IDF artillery and biannual invasion don't amount to anything. Got it.

The point is that while Germany was certainly decimated by the Allies, the Palestinians are in no better of a situation.

Israel to pay students to defend it online

Money well spent.
Here's a life pro tip for you, Beef, next time you repeat what you think someone is stating and formulate the words "Got it" in your head, ask yourself, "Wait a second, am I subconsciously making up some dumb bullshit to prevent myself from having to realize how wrong and ignorant I am being?".
 

Beef Supreme_sl

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Beef lecturing Lithose on logic = Priceless.
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Beef Supreme_sl

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Here's a life pro tip for you, Beef, next time you repeat what you think someone is stating and formulate the words "Got it" in your head, ask yourself, "Wait a second, am I subconsciously making up some dumb bullshit to prevent myself from having to realize how wrong and ignorant I am being?".
Thanks for that life lesson chief.

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Frenzied Wombat

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The point is that while Germany was certainly decimated by the Allies, the Palestinians are in no better of a situation.
Geez dude.. It's sad when people don't even know the details of one of the most pivotal points in human history. The Germans were utterly ravaged by the Russians. By the time Russian infantry made it to Berlin, murderous rage would probably be a kind description of their state of mind. German POW's were basically death marched back to Russia, German women raped, the people actually starved to death. There was no UNRWA air-dropping food, no "UN monitoring", no cease-fire for humanitarian supplies, and certainly no Russian M.A.S.H type camp setup for injured Germans. It's not even close..
 

Beef Supreme_sl

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Geez dude.. It's sad when people don't even know the details of one of the most pivotal points in human history. The Germans were utterly ravaged by the Russians.By the time Russian infantry made it to Berlin, murderous rage would probably be a kind description of their state of mind. German POW's were basically death marched back to Russia, German women raped, the people actually starved to death.There was no UNRWA air-dropping food, no "UN monitoring", no cease-fire for humanitarian supplies, and certainly no Russian M.A.S.H type camp setup for injured Germans. It's not even close..
I'm glad you've put a threshold on human suffering. German suffering > Palestinian suffering. It's cool as long as they are brown, right?

Bold is straight up made up.
 

Cinge

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I'm glad you've put a threshold on human suffering. German suffering > Palestinian suffering. It's cool as long as they are brown, right?

Bold is straight up made up.
You keep making the comparisons. Stop comparing two completely different things like they are equal and people wouldn't jump all over you.
 

Lithose

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So in order for the Palestinian conflict to be serious, they need to compete with the losses from WW2? That's some nice logic.
No, read what you were responding to.


Germany and Japan also had to be almost obliterated to get to the point of "peace".



The elements of the German capitulation (And Japan) wereverydifferent. It's a lot more difficult to continue, or even support, guerrilla actions when nearly all the men of a fighting age, as well as any support system for them, are destroyed. Understand? Obliteration means total destruction. As bad as what the Palastinians have suffered through, it is NOT obliteration. It is not the death of such a significant portion of their population that they no longer have the bodies to support resistance actions. KILLING individuals of a fighting age was an important element of why the Marshal plan worked; why these countries were so desperate that they were willing to offer almost no resistance.

Without that mass-loss; a societycanstill resist. Understand? Don't just drop your horse shit emotional sympathies hoping to spin the argument away from the original point. The point is, without that grievous loss of life, the aproach to peace has to be significantly different. If anything, the point being made is kind of an agreement that Palestine can't be arpoached with the type of occupation that happened to the Germans (Which you'd see if you weren't so rabid to drop your news bites). Straw man less, please. Expecting that kind of capitulation, is foolish. It was never about "how brutal" it is. But on that note, if you wish to bring the argument there--no, the brutality of the modern age is several orders of magnitudes less than that of WW2--And that's a good thing. That does NOT mean the Palestinians are not suffering, they most certainly are. However, yes, there are degrees of of brutality, and no, these two are NOT equivalent.

Once again, just like your silly rant about how the modern world has destroyed the romantic ideals of the past--humans, and their actions/effects are WAY too complex to put in such black and white terms. The world has a lot of gray in between. Palestine can still be suffering horrific violence, but yes, that violence can be significantly less than at other points in history (That doesn't lessen what Palestine is going through--the world has changed, and ALL things, ALL things are relative.)

I'm glad you've put a threshold on human suffering. German suffering > Palestinian suffering. It's cool as long as they are brown, right?

Bold is straight up made up.
"If they are brown"---LOL, fucking straw man's all over. No one is saying "it's cool"; people are illustrating that history has nuances, your romantic notions of absolute good or wrong are just..well, they are dumb.

As for "straight up made up!". Uhh, no it'snot. I forget the books I read on it, but I'll post some if you actually care to learn about this period. The Americans were absolutely brutal--the Russians far worse (And who can blame them? The Germans were awful toward them). But it DID happen. You not knowing that is shocking.
 

fanaskin

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How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas - WSJ

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen,Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah.Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.
Hamas, Son of Israel by Justin Raimondo -- Antiwar.com

Amid all the howls of pain and gnashing of teeth over the triumph of Hamas in the Palestinian elections, one fact remains relatively obscure, albeit highly relevant: Israel did much to launch Hamas as an effective force in the occupied territories. If ever there was a clear case of "blowback," then this is it. As Richard Sale pointed out in a piece for UPI:

"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel 'aided Hamas directly - the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),' said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies.Israel's support for Hamas 'was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,'said a former senior CIA official."
 

Cinge

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About the usual it seems these days. A enemy of a enemy is temporarily your friend. Then its back to being enemies.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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I'm glad you've put a threshold on human suffering. German suffering > Palestinian suffering. It's cool as long as they are brown, right?

Bold is straight up made up.
Again, you tried to make the comparison, not me.

There were 3.4 million German POW's in Russian camps at the end of the war. By the time of their disbandment in 1952, there were 10,000 German POW's still alive. As for the rape situation, it's well documented.'They raped every German female from eight to 80' | Books | The Guardian