Warhammer 40k: Eternal Crusade

Denaut · Jun 15, 2013

I have to admit, you guys are thinking way too big. As I read through this thread, and the excellent suggestions it contains, I cannot help but see the stereotypical game show counter spinning faster and higher.

Normally I don't comment on threads like this but fuck it, I have actually thought about this way more than anyone reasonably should, with a ~10 page concept I made for fun and to test a new piece of writing software (Scrivener is pretty awesome btw.)

So, here is the conclusion I reached. As awesome as a vast, sprawling, multi-race, Eve style MMORPG in the 40k universe would be I don't really think it is possible to make such a game within a reasonable, or even unreasonable, budget. I'd strip the game way down to its bare parts for release.

I would structure the game simply at launch. The game is PvE based, and all players are Space Marines (or, if you REALLY want female characters include the Sisters of Battle). The classes fall into general archetypes, I was thinking something like Tactical, Assault, Devastator, and Tech Marines. Each one has a selection of equipment, sometimes overlapping, that determines their "abilities". Moment to moment game-play would resemble the under appreciated (IMO) "Space Marine" game that came out a couple of years ago. So, a combination of melee and shooter game-play with load outs and limited ability selection within a level.

Progression is achievement based, you don't have levels per say but you can unlock gear, upgrades, and whatever progression elements you have through completing certain objectives or kinds of objectives. So, killing 5 hive tyrants would unlock the relic flamer for example (spit-balling here).

Content itself would be, like I said, primarily PvE based with perhaps a VR arena or something that includes "just-for-fun" PvP. Essentially the players would be fighting for control of the galaxy against an AI that attacks and invades planets/ships. The Space Marine players are "strike team" style groups of ~5 that drop pod (or board) into a level to complete a mission. The specific mission is a combination of race/location/control. For example, if you are attacking Orc Controlled Planet X, your mission might be to find and kill the Warboss... but if Planet X is under Imperial control and the Tyranids are attacking the mission (with roughly the same level design) would be to defend the outpost while destroying the Brood Nests. At launch the AI only races would be limited to the more inhuman/"Evil" races probably the Tyranid, Orcs, and Dark Templar. The Tyranid and Orc because it is fun to mow down hordes of enemies, the DT because they are known pirates and would be interesting to battle in boarding/repelling actions.

I am pretty sure, with good tech and clear direction a game like this could be made for a reasonable amount of money, say 20 million at the high end and 10 million at the low end assuming all of the art/content is AAA quality. There would be a healthy amount of re-use within the more expensive parts of the game (level building, art/animations) while still having all hand-crafted content and hopefully interesting mission design. New content introduction would be pretty easy, adding planets or new missions to planet/territory rotations. The cost would still be fairly high though, since no matter which way you slice it PvE games cost money because they rely on content.

There would be an element of strategic play on a galaxy map, players could lose/gain advantages by capturing or holding certain planets/territories for the Imperium. Ultimately it is a cooperative game, so it would benefit everyone for players to work together, hopefully limiting the toxicity of the community.

What is good about this is that with a low initial time/cost to get the game out the door it wouldn't spend ages in development hell and the game can be further expanded post launch with new areas, player races, ship battles, and PvP.

fucker_sl · Jun 15, 2013

Denaut, i think that's the single, most incredibly horrible and stupid idea anyone has ever had connected to the idea of a 40k mmo. Hell, i'm sure you are the very first person actually trying to push PoE at all. Any idea or concept for a 40k mmo is build around "how the fuck we can do the pvp as massive as possible in a realistical way" , not around killing ork_boy_04897294820 for 50xp

I'm the first to say an EVE system is impossible to make right, but for completely different reasons, connected to the lore and the playerbase

you are basically describing World of 40000. And you will see rivers of blood dedicated to Khorne if something like this was made

The only, realistical chance to see a great game based on 40k is to expand Space Marine. Sure the pvp was nothing major of course, but it was a breath of fresh air after years of covering system or "die with 2 bullets" games. The assault class alone is the single greatest class in any FPS. Add more classes (scout librarian techmarine / various demons), vehicles and destruction system in gigantic maps and you are done

basically, Battlefield 4 in year 40000

Hell, implement a "squad based avatar" and you can include Imperial Guard/Traitor guards without breaking the lore (IE a IG player doesnt simply has a single model avatar, but brings with him like 10 bots that act as part of him)

Helldiver · Jun 15, 2013

Erronius_sl said:
..

I was looking at it through Eve goggles as well. Eve starts at about the same sizes BFG uses. Unless we want to call a BFG escort Eve's equivalent of cruiser? Either way just because I say imperium is pretty much everywhere, doesn't mean we have to be friends.
In fact that would open up significantly more possibilities without stepping on the fluff. Also there really is nothing that you could come up with from Eve, that I couldn't come up with a BFG equivalent. The rules and fluff (as light as you might think it is) actually support quite a few variants. However, at least from what I have read so far, the majority of those options are found among the IN. By the way, historically its been the Empire's ego and belief that they were impervious to the denizens of the galaxy that got them in trouble in the first place.

Second, you're right, I suppose Eldar and all the other factions can be their own thing living within the Imperial sectors (as it is now anyways). Problem I have with that, is the Dark Eldar corp that ends up with a huge swathe of Segmentum Obscurus... lol

But I have to ask you this though; In 40K what game has really stepped outside the norm in terms of the weapons and vehicles available from what you see in the mini's game? The Dawn of War series, even Space Marine, didn't really get "creative" as you guys suggest. Sure they probably added one or two weapons, but for the most part they stayed restricted to what the plastic kits have.

Honestly I don't really have an argument since Eve just calls the same laser or missile a million different things. I guess you'd do the same for a lance battery or what ever.

I contend that the STO model would be perfect for WH40K.

We start with just Imperials and Chaos. The two can't visit each other's main homeworld. There would be space and ground content for both so they can level independently. You would have warzone instances of both ground and space where Imperials and Chaos can duke it out.

Space Marines would be a DoFF for your ship in addition to unlockable Deathwatch or what ever Boffs. Later on in the cash ship you could purchase a Space Marine Pack that includes a Strike Cruiser and a pack of 4 SM BoFFs, you'd still be playing Imperium. As the game progresses they could add the Eldar as the third independent faction, and Orks. Ships would be modular, allowing you to set them up to what ever specific role you wish (lance batteries, weapon batteries, launch bays, what ever). As for the mini's game, yeah the other factions didn't have a lot of those options, but BFG Magazine added a lot of that stuff to the other fleets, as well as gave fluff to explain it.

There are enough classes and variants to support all tiers and roles if we're going by STO as a base model.

Denaut · Jun 15, 2013

fucker_sl said:
Denaut, i think that's the single, most incredibly horrible and stupid idea anyone has ever had connected to the idea of a 40k mmo. Hell, i'm sure you are the very first person actually trying to push PoE at all. Any idea or concept for a 40k mmo is build around "how the fuck we can do the pvp as massive as possible in a realistical way" , not around killing ork_boy_04897294820 for 50xp

I'm the first to say an EVE system is impossible to make right, but for completely different reasons, connected to the lore and the playerbase

you are basically describing World of 40000. And you will see rivers of blood dedicated to Khorne if something like this was made

The only, realistical chance to see a great game based on 40k is to expand Space Marine. Sure the pvp was nothing major of course, but it was a breath of fresh air after years of covering system or "die with 2 bullets" games. The assault class alone is the single greatest class in any FPS. Add more classes (scout librarian techmarine / various demons), vehicles and destruction system in gigantic maps and you are done

basically, Battlefield 4 in year 40000

Hell, implement a "squad based avatar" and you can include Imperial Guard/Traitor guards without breaking the lore (IE a IG player doesnt simply has a single model avatar, but brings with him like 10 bots that act as part of him)

I would, naturally, completely disagree.

The 40k universe is huge and varied. The IP is already sliced into many different levels, and for that reason can be parsed into different kinds of games. For example:
* Squad-based D&D like Inquisitor single player RPG/Puzzle game
* Battlefield 40k (like you said and it would be awesome, but isn't really an MMORPG)
* Tactical Turn-Based Strategy Game (X-Com 40k)
* RTS/Tactical RTS (Dawn of War games)
* Galaxy Spanning emergent MMORPG
* Single Player Linear Shooter (Space Marine)
* Etc.

Many people's relationship to the 40k Universe isn't even through the actual tabletop game. I personally have never played it (read some of the rule books though). I have no stats for this of course, but I think, like me, lots of gamers that enjoy the IP relate to it through the books and stories. That was what I centered my concept of the game around,myrelationship to Warhammer 40k and how that would realistically translate MMORPG that might actually get made and be fun.

Not all of 40k revolves around PvP, and almost none of it revolves around massive PvP. That is your concept, and it isn't a bad one, but it isn't the only one. Even the tabletop is fairly limited in scope (yes I know about apocalypse). Insisting that there isONEway to do a 40k MMO and that itMUSTinclude massive PvP is incorrect. I personally would love toBEthe heroic Space Marine going on dangerous and difficult missions with his squad-mates that I follow in the books, and the MMORPG space is excellently suited for this type of game-play. Just because you don't get satisfaction around mowing down hordes of enemies and can't see past your limited scope of just how great PvE done right can be, doesn't mean it isn't a good way to make a 40k MMORPG.

fucker_sl · Jun 15, 2013

you are mixing elements of a single player, multiplayer and mmo games

let's distinct please

if we are talking about a mmo done right (enphasys on done right), then i remark what i said....it cant be done. period. For the simple reason that it must be a pvp based game, and this will introduce the problems of balancing the factions while staying true to the lore. It is a problem that plagued pvp games since DaoC. Every server had his overwhelming faction. Hell even WoW had the same problem until the introduction of cross server arena. You create alliances and you will have things like the Eldar mangina Elftits playing alongside his Dark Templar buddie. No thanks

and a PvE 40k mmo would fail worse than Vanguard

now, if we are talking about a singleplayer game, sure there are tons of options. Personally i would love a RPG games with an inquisitor as main character. It would show the massive world and the lore like any other (something that Spacemarine completely failed to do).

Sabbat · Jun 15, 2013

Denaut, I understand and agree with your view for a WH40K *game*. It would (as you describe it) be best suited for a CO-OP RPG the like of Borderlands. You could drop a WH40K skin straight on top of Borderlands and have a decent game. Fuck around with the item drops and tie them less to the items themselves and more to skills and you'd have a better game. 4 player squads would be excellent in the type of game you've described.

I feel that MMO is being misunderstood on both sides of the fence. To me, MMO means "persistent world", and not "lots of people". fucker is talking more about persistent worlds.

I don't completely agree with fucker saying that PvP, staying successful and sticking as close to the lore would be impossible. I do think you'd have to make some hard choices that many people would not like initially. I also think that PvE *should* have a fairly big presence and players should join these large campaigns as elite combat units. I'm talking about the original Alterac Valley but on a much bigger scale, both in numbers and territory -- think more along the lines of GW2s dynamic event system.

Denaut, the one thing you must remember while we kick this idea around is that we don't care how long it would take to build, or how much it would cost. We know that the task would be a mammoth undertaking to do it right, and that's the entire rub of using WH40K for an MMO. Unless you use it all, it's basically worthless. The company that gets that into their heads and works on tech, tools and designs for a truly MASSIVELY multiplayer game will finally do it justice and might just make some cash from it.

Denaut · Jun 15, 2013

You are both misunderstanding me, or more likely I am failing to explain it properly. The concept isn't Space Marine Borderlands (which would work really well), it has a persistent world, the concept is sort of an expanded Planetside 2 versus AI rather than other players. If you launch a mission to push the Tyranid off "Forge World Alpha" and succeed, then the Tyranids are gone and the Imperium owns Forge World Alpha. Now you have access to whatever benefits it provides. You can also now push into Forge World Beta and Gamma (which may be harder or have different benefits). Later on if the Tyranids attack the planet again, and no one comes to defend it, then all of the players collectively lose the bonuses it provided.

It is very much an MMORPG, where your actions are persistent and directly affect every other player in the game world. It is also something that could reasonably be accomplished and would be very fun to play. Game concepts I find exciting are also ones I think can be made, ideas aren't really all that interesting unless they can be acted on.

Sabbat · Jun 15, 2013

I understood you just fine, and that would work as I have explained (the AV comments)... your PS2 v. AI is exactly what Firefall was supposed to be, but looks like they have dropped the ball.

Tyranids are a prime example of the perfect NPC villain that shakes the very foundations of the game world and should never be considered for playable races. It just wouldn't be WH40K without the threat of a Chaos raid on a planet to steal some tech while that planet fought off an invasion force, or even a civil uprising. That's the sort of shit you should feel when playing a WH40K game -- the universe is infinitely hostile.

Burren · Jun 15, 2013

Denaut_sl said:
...Not all of 40k revolves around PvP, and almost none of it revolves around massive PvP...

This is the most incorrect thing ever said, in the history of the interwebs.

Gavinmad · Jun 15, 2013

Burren_sl said:
This is the most incorrect thing ever said, in the history of the interwebs.

No shit, glad you pointed that out, cause I totally missed it and it really is retarded. I mean it's not like variations of 'In the grim darkness of the future,there is only war' has been the single defining tagline of the 40k setting since the very beginning. It's included in the forward of every single black library book too. But yeah, I'm sure there's no massive pvp in 40k.

Mr Creed · Jun 15, 2013

The combination of EVE Online + Dust514 in a WH40K shell would be the ultimate realisation of the franchise as far as video games are concerned. Would be, because nobody is ever going to do it justice.

So Denaut's idea isnt my first pick, the above would be. BUT what he describes can be interpreted as World of 40K (40K is just a bad copy of Starcraft anyway amirite?), or as a mix of Space Hulk and the Dawn of War games. Now I dont know about you, but Space hulk and Dawn of War both owned. I just dont read his suggestion as pulling packs of 4 linked orks that get maintanked 5 times to have a scripted boss fight with an Ork boss. And actually, Space Marine but with a group instead of not single player would fit into the same mold: elite Space Marine squad mowing down aliens and heretics.

Re: game type, yea would probably not be an MMO, galaxy map with benefits or not. It would own as a PS2 version with whole continents for each planet and a huge, interwoven dynamic event system from GW - but its just too big an undertaking and utterly impossible. Stepping away from the MMO it could still work with all the other bells&whistles like advantages for holding certain planets/facilities. Picture a mix of GW1, Dawn of War campaign mode. For PVE that is. For PVP the best I can think of is your squad being in a mix of Alterac valley and DotA.

Erronius · Jun 16, 2013

Helldiver_sl said:
Eve starts at about the same sizes BFG uses. Unless we want to call a BFG escort Eve's equivalent of cruiser?

I think the BFG/EVE size issue is completely arbitrary, as far as what I would picture for players to use. Even in EVE a Rifter is about the same size as a 747 iirc, which is fairly large. Contrast that with some of the "civilian" fluff ships from Star Wars for example. I want to say (but I could be wrong) that the Millenium Falcon is on the large side of the civilian ship spectrum. Even your basic BFG frigate is much larger than that.

Take the Megathron, should be right at 1km in length. IIRC this is about where a lot of the smaller BFG ships start at, like 1km to 1.5 or so. So you can have a true BFG scale that is actually larger than the EVE scale, and it would leave a vast amount of room for smaller, civilian ships. Even the largest EVE sub-cap is a hair below 2km (Mach).

Again as I've said before, just because I said "EVE + BFG", I wouldn't want to literally insert BFG ships in to replace current EVE ships. If anything I think that true faction fleets should be more on the GM/NPC or static side of things. There is plenty of room to create civilian vessels for the EVE side of the 40K players, before you get into actual 40K naval fleet vessels. And since you can create an entire panoply of vessels for players, I'd use the actual fleet vessels as both staging grounds (fleet orbiting above a planet during an extended campaign or assault) or as a pseudo-station for players to dock at or whatever, or in some situations you could even have naval assaults. Lets say for example, a stranded and crippled cruiser that the "EVE" players could strafe or check out, and you could even have the DUST-514 players treat it much as you might treat a dungeon or PVP battlefield (boarding torpedo or teleport in, fight, profit).

I do want to say that I don't think that the "tabletop" soldiers so to speak would fit into the EVE world; I have a hard time seeing a Space Marine shooting rocks, playing Spreadsheets Online or doing missions as you would in EVE. This was one of the things that people have brought up before; there would be people who want to play 40K as a veritable 40K PVP combat character. This is where I think the DUST-514 avenue could come into play. If you want to play as some sort of Harlequin for example, welp, you'll create a "DUST" character, while someone wanting to do "EVE" ship PVP or whatever creates an "EVE" character.

Helldiver_sl said:
Problem I have with that, is the Dark Eldar corp that ends up with a huge swathe of Segmentum Obscurus... lol

Again, as I said before, just because you are a Dark Eldar character doesn't mean that you are actually conquering space in the Name of the Dark Eldar. Minmatar characters don't conquer territory for the Minmatar faction. Further, it's completely anti-fluff IMHO to even have DE take territory in the material world. Now sure, you're going to have to have organizations for players and you would probably have to be more stringent with 40K orgs than you have with EVE , but I don't see player orgs in EVE as taking "huge swathes" of territory unless you set it up for that to happen. You could set up 0.0 territory as you see fit, hell it could all be hisec/lowsec if you wanted.

Helldiver_sl said:
But I have to ask you this though; In 40K what game has really stepped outside the norm in terms of the weapons and vehicles available from what you see in the mini's game? The Dawn of War series, even Space Marine, didn't really get "creative" as you guys suggest. Sure they probably added one or two weapons, but for the most part they stayed restricted to what the plastic kits have.

Personally I'd say that is because GW has always focused on 40K/Fantasy far more than any other portion of their many IPs. There is simply more fluff options for 40K than there would be otherwise. It's their flagship product with Fantasy as #2, so of course they're going to have so much more for it. On top of that look at the stuff that FW has been putting out for 40K recently (Volkite weapons as one example) and the new 40K stuff that they've been adding to codexes recently. Eldar get a new giant walker much like the Tau just got I gather, everyone has been getting flyers, and this is all in-the-flesh new stuff added to the armies, not fluff that you have to go find PDF downloads of just to see.

Helldiver_sl said:
I contend that the STO model would be perfect for WH40K.

We start with just Imperials and Chaos. The two can't visit each other's main homeworld. There would be space and ground content for both so they can level independently. You would have warzone instances of both ground and space where Imperials and Chaos can duke it out.

And you know what? I would be instantly turned off, much as I was with STO. 40K isn't Good Versus bad, or Evil versus"Not as evil but kinda good because they don't consort with daemons/xenos/witches but still evil nonetheless". When I heard that STO was going to be WOW in space, with 2 factions that all of the races would be smashed into and instead of a UNIVERSE they were going to have instanced PVP and something akin to raids, that was it for me. No sale. I knew that it was going to be a trainwreck and you know what? It was. Of course if STO had tried something more ambitious it still may not have been any more successful, but I would have been a million times more interested as well.

Helldiver_sl said:
Space Marines would be a DoFF for your ship in addition to unlockable Deathwatch...

Stopped right there.

Denaut · Jun 16, 2013

Burren_sl said:
This is the most incorrect thing ever said, in the history of the interwebs.

Gavinrad_sl said:
No shit, glad you pointed that out, cause I totally missed it and it really is retarded. I mean it's not like variations of 'In the grim darkness of the future,there is only war' has been the single defining tagline of the 40k setting since the very beginning. It's included in the forward of every single black library book too. But yeah, I'm sure there's no massive pvp in 40k.

I guess I am imagining the hundreds (thousands?) of stories and novels, the four P&P RPG games, the Space Hulk card game (co-op), and the board game. If memory serves even the videos games are small scale PvP generally being 1v1-4v4, and up to a small FPS match in the case of Space Marine.

The 40k universe revolves aroundconflictyes, but that conflict can take all kinds of different forms. It could take the form of you playing an imperial guard soldier in a massive PvP battle against chaos cultists, or it could take the form of you playing an elite space marine wading chain sword in hand through hordes of Orks with your brothers.

I am not saying that a PvE focused game would be everyone's cup of tea (especially on this board), I was just saying how I would do it. But to insist that in an IP as varied and encompassing as 40k there is onlyONEway to express that conflict, or to make an MMO is the only incorrect thing here.

Sabbat · Jun 16, 2013

Denaut, you are 100% correct about a lot of the novels, RPGs, card games and video games being based around small scale engagements.You've already coveredwhythat is so. It's really, really hard (read: expensive) to make video games about massive large scale encounters. It's also really hard to writecompellingnovels about large scale encounters because they are fucking boring without a deep interpersonal experience with which to empathise with.

Think about it for a second, you and a squad, are up against a Ork horde, numbering in the thousands. You're not alone in this endeavour... you've got other SM squads backing you up, Imperial Guard units on outskirts shelling the ever living fuck out of the enemy, you've got aerial assaults on strategic targets and a ton of other shit going on, warp battles.. blah blah blah ... and finally, the additional threat that some other group will want in on the action, and you won't know who they will ally with temporarily, or if at all. You also don't know what those other groups objectives are. There's an entire game in just this scenario alone. But, to stay true and faithful to WH40K, it's not enough. You must go further, this should not be the only conflict going on, there should be potentially hundreds others just like it -- on other worlds, in Hive cities and ancient tombs.

Read some Black Library books like Fulgrim or the Grey Knights and see how authors like Dan Abnett have crafted their squad based stories within the massive universe around them. Sure, he focuses on a few characters at a time, but they generally team up and meet much large squads andpopulationseven. Gaunt's Ghosts is another.

You could make a great CO-OP RPG from WH40K, and you could make a truly, massively complex MMO (persistent universe/world) from it as well. The only thing really holding a developer back, is the willingness to do it. Shit, I'd even suck it up and move from my cozy 30 degree C / 80% humidity lifestyle and freeze my balls off somewhere to be a part of it.

PS: Most of this board is PvE friendly, and doesn't like to have PvP forced on them. That's a major sticking point.

Helldiver · Jun 16, 2013

I still don't understand why it has to be PvP. I just don't get it, seriously guys I don't get it. I sold over 80k a year of that stuff, kept up to date with it, ran campaigns, slurped GW's cack, and still do, and I still don't understand why an MMO HAS to be PvP. By the way, if you guys have been to a Gamesday, there are a lot of Co-op games, and I don't mean allies. Anything from Space Hulk vs. a referee, to storming a fortress against GW refs, they have all shorts of games where players co-op against a scenario. One of the most fun games I played was a variant of death squads where each player played a single marine trying to infiltrate this huge facility the gw ref had set up.

Let me redefine it to make sure we're on the same level, PvP, Player versus Player right?

Ok now, Fucker, Erronius and whom ever, explain WHY a 40K MMO -HAS- to be open PvP?

What's wrong with a PvE campaign where you run around stomping Ork/Chaos what ever ass? That's not breaking fluff, that's not breaking the nature of the Grim darkness of the future. Hold on let me check... oh right none of my codices or the core rulebook say "In the Grim Darkness there is only war BETWEEN PLAYERS". What's wrong with playing Chaos and stomping SM, or what ever? I don't understand why you guys are adamant against a PvE main game?

Yes I know the mini's game is all about 1v1 or what ever, yeah I get that. But we have to think outside the box if we're going to have an MMO. Have you guys wondered why there hasn't been an MMO yet and why we'd probably be pissed at any treatment they give it?

Again, I see nothing wrong with a PvE based game. Except each faction can have their own starting location with PvP (Optional) zones sprinkled in. Don't understand what's so sissy about that. I'm the first to speak up when ever they pussify 40K, and I don't see an MMO like that bothering me. Actually the only way I foresee a true 40K MMO is a PvE based game. This allows designers to set the proper pacing, tone, and structure. I don't see anything grim about having to wander around getting ganked by six orks day one. Sure yeah yeah, I get it, "grim darkness" and all that, after an hour of that shit, I uninstall.

Shoot, if you played the RPG, that's all you do; you're a retinue going out and doing PvE. No, you don't attack the other players sitting around the table.

Sabbat · Jun 16, 2013

We're looking in broad terms here, and yet again someone (whoever) is trying to micro their way into a pre-defined system to show why it (in this case) PvE vs. PvP is the way to go.

In pure lore terms, Space Marines are the most xenophobic arsehats in the universe, they'll even kill former humans that have evolved differently unless they submit wholly both on a spiritual and cultural level.

It's the circumstances that find Grey Knights fighting arena battles in worship to Khorne with Eldar and Orkish allies that really show the universes diverse viewpoints. This is why I believe that PvP should indeed be added (and carefully implemented from day one of development). I'm not talking about battlegrounds, I'm more talking about lawless space like EVEs 0.0 security systems.

If an Banshee squad and an SM squad meet each other while staking out a Tyranid nest site, there should be a moment when the players in those teams ask themselves... do we fight? do we talk? do we team up? do we run away and shit talk them for playing their respective races? I'd like the players themselves to sort that out. It would add a layer of life to the game that you wouldn't see in a (general) LF3M - SM-Dev/Tech/Apoc - Battle of Istvaan IIV - no noobs, 4k gs+.

It also gives a level of chaos to a rather structured world (read: toys vs. games), and difficulty that outshines any AI that doesn't aimbot.

Shit, I'd even like to see FF turned on so the abuse of AoE mechanics just gets stomped into the ground. Shelling your SM squad with a Baneblade (with FF turned off) might be effective, but it's something that would never happen unless that Baneblade was under Chaos control.

EVE's security ratings in systems is a perfect way to help the newer players slide into the universe without getting camped by 4 Orks outside their starting zone. Once that player leaves the more protected areas.. well, the universe is hostile. There's so many ways you can use PvP in a PvE sorta game to make it just fucking epic.

How about this:

We've got a serious issue on the surface of this world, the Imperial population has been declining, and production has slowed to all-time lows. Your crew of SMs have been sent in after an Inquisitor has gone missing in one of the Hive cities on the surface. Another group has also been sent to this Hive city, it's a group of Eldar looking for a warp relic. The relic that the Eldar are after is drawing warp influences into the city and a small Chaos cult has started to thrive with the increase in warp power. When the two (or maybe more) opposing teams arrive in the same area of influence there's a pop-up that alerts both sides and there's a map vote -- do we treat the other team as hostile or not, y/n?

If yes gets selected, all global chat is now squelched in the area/planet/instance/whathaveyou and factional PvP is now active. If no is selected, factional warfare is turned off (in a default state for this particular event). There's no reason you can't have different areas, and different levels of PvP engagements within those areas. Player/guild owned outposts with defense cannons that fuck up opposing factions on sight? yes please.

Look, there's going to be a bunch of arsehats that just want to kill everyone, everywhere with no consequence. Fuck those people. PvP can be a real addition to a game but most devs just don't give a fuck and pander to either the gankers or the carebears with nothing really in between for people like me that love BOTH aspects of the game (and not necessarily at the same time).

Erronius · Jun 16, 2013

Helldiver_sl said:
Ok now, Fucker, Erronius and whom ever, explain WHY a 40K MMO -HAS- to be open PvP?

You really aren't asking the right question here. We all know that it doesn't literally have to be PvP, but that's not really the issue here. The real question would be why we or others would prefer PvP over PvE.

I'm not some sort of PvP homer, but that's because 1) most PvP today blows, 2) games normally aren't built from the ground up to encompass PvP, and 3) even when a game is, it rarely if ever has a compelling reason to actually contribute to the overarching goals that players should have.

My question to you would be, what kind of PvE are you expecting to have? If it's going to be some sort of FPS PvE experience against NPCs, then yeah I have no interest in that at all. Most FPS type games where you introduce bots is usually atrocious and half of the time the AI is functionally retarded or people crank up their ability to HEADSHOT people since true AI difficulty is still beyond of our grasp. At least against other players you can level the playing field somewhat in regards to skill and challenge, you just have to address the imbalance in player numbers. Now, if you say that you don't want some sort of PvE FPS experience and instead you want some sort of standard PvE MMO, well, yeah gonna pass on that as well. I've played umpteen PvE MMOs, and killing MOAR ORKS just doesn't really interest me anymore. In my mind making a'World of 40K-craft'would be an abortion of such scope that most of us would be struck with a sense of awe. After we all grind out levels by killing a metric fuckton of snotlings and decking our characters out in[green]solo quest gear, we can try putting a group together to farm a bunch of[blue]dungeon drops so that we can all start raiding the Chaos Space Marine bosses 3 nights a week for[purples]until we can get [Abaddon the Anal Rapist] on farm status so that we can kill him repeatedly for months at a time like some sort of demented MMO version of "Groundhog Day". This will be difficult as not only will we get to deal with the same derps that we've been forced to raid with for the last 10 or more years as well as whackamole raid design because the raid model is now completely played out, but we'll also get the added difficulty of trying to keep enough people playing because no one with a functional brainstem wants to keep doing this bullshit anymore and a 40K PvE MMO should be punishable by immolation.

When I say that I am looking towards PvP, I'm not talking instanced battlegrounds or arenas, nor am I talking about FFA PvP gankfests either. I want a game where there is some player friction though. I want factions that actuallyMEAN SOMETHING, in that player conflict in the game has some actual bearing on the state of the game world itself. This doesn't have to mean that one faction has the opportunity to take over the entire universe, but there should be some sort actual player/gameworld interaction where player conflict actually results in an outcome that isn't a PvP rank, title, honor points, ranking, gear tokens or whatever other kinds of bullshit gets pushed on us.

Helldiver_sl said:
What's wrong with a PvE campaign where you run around stomping Ork/Chaos what ever ass?

Sounds like something I can do in a single player game. Of course the same could be said about a simple FPS MMO, but then again I don't want a simple FPS MMO that just consists of some facile structure that leaves me wondering why I'm even playing it. What MMOs bring to the table (or should bring, in my mind) is a gameworld where we not only do work together towards a common goal (a true goal, not some faux lazy Dev goal), but as a faction we help build the world that we actually play in and also protect it from others who can damage it. Now you have a game that just cannot work in a single player environment, and you have something that not only can appeal to the Builders, but with a gigantic universe available you can also satisfy the Explorers as well.

Helldiver_sl said:
I don't understand why you guys are adamant against a PvE main game?

I don't understand why you're the one that is adamant that it must be a PvE game. The thing is, I think what I am envisioning isn't even a pure "PvP" game at all, it's similar to EVE. People just call EVE a "PvP" game because of how the structure does allow for open world PvP to a degree, and because to many a game that isn't one of the usual xp/loot progression PVE treadmills is simply beyond their grasp as being a PvE game at all. Sure there are a lot of pure PvP players in EVE, but I'd say the majority of players are PvE carebears in hisec and they never PvP, ever.

What I detest is people that insist on forcing every available IP into the current PvE MMO model as though that is the only way that an MMO can work. We've seen this with tons of MMOs now and I for one am sick to death of it. I actually think that the current PvE paradigm itself is the biggest reason why so many of the current MMOs just kind of fizzle out. I give credit to games like GW2, but seriously, they've managed (IMHO) to ruin what they have. Spec mode, glory and rank, I mean FFS it's all structured PvP. It isn't a living, breathing world, it's a glorified battleground.

This is what it boils down to, for me: I want a world. A living, breathing gameworld that I can interact with. I want to put the RPG back into MMORPG via actual character development choices and not +xp or ability skills alone or being forced to actually talk in Vent like a dwarf. I want a game that gives me negative reinforcement (overarching player faction friction) instead of simply using positive reinforcement constantly in the form of +gooder items or purples. And here we have the 40K universe, which to me would be perfect for such a game. And yet, people want to see it made into another PvE MMO.

Helldiver_sl said:
Shoot, if you played the RPG, that's all you do; you're a retinue going out and doing PvE. No, you don't attack the other players sitting around the table.

I have played the RPG, and we have played PCs versus PCs. We had an issue with too many people showing up to smash everyone into a single group. I mean, they make all kinds of references for the RPG that you can do whatever you want, and like most PnP RPGs if you are limiting yourself to what you say above - playing a retinue and doing PvE - then that's on you, honestly. It's no different than old D&D groups that tried to run two separate and opposing groups when they had an excess of players and some wanted to play evil characters. We did that some back in the day and it didn't go any worse than the standard RPG games went. If you're limiting yourself to playing the RPG as a psuedo-PvE encounter then I don't know what to tell you, other than it is a horrible argument to try to support a PvE 40K MMO with.

Ukerric · Jun 16, 2013

Erronius_sl said:
In my mind making a'World of 40K-craft'would be an abortion of such scope that most of us would be struck with a sense of awe. After we all grind out levels by killing a metric fuckton of snotlings and decking our characters out in[green]solo quest gear,...

Who said this was the only way of having a PVE MMO?

Besides, which Space Marine would be wearing junk looted off an Ork?

What Denault was suggesting is a MMORPG in which you face numbers of planets and complexes to secure/protect, and, based on achievements, you'd be able to draw from the stores of the Space Armory. You don't get a flamethrower unless you've squared off against some upper-echelon Tyranids, and so on. You get some xp/levelling to increase innate capacities, you get achievement-driven stuff to get gear (two different progression axis). A high-level strategic "general command" AI designates priorities based on overall ebb and flow of the eternal war, and you can attempt some objectives solo (and hope not to get destroyed if you cross into a squad-level area at the wrong time), or do squad. No raid per se, unless you count the fact that you can have large complexes with a dozen or more 6-man squads involved (and you not only get credit if you make your objectives; you get credit if the others achieve theirs).

The setup is similar to a PvP game, but with a major difference, and that's the fact that the AI adjusts its difficulty and strength to the players online, rather than the designers hoping there's about an equal balance between, say Imperium, Tyranids, Eldars and Orks, both on capacities of players, but also number of players. Less chance of a wreck.

What I detest is people that insist on forcing every available IP into the current PvE MMO model

Again, it seems that everyone instantly assumes that PVE = WoW-clone. Hey, no one wants a WoW clone set in W40K. But a PVE game doesn't have to be a WoW clone. Granted, 95% of the devs are probably too stupid to envision anything else, or, if they are, some execs are probably going to get cold feet at one point and try to ask their devs "isn't this too diifferent from WoW? Can we have some yellow ! marks somewhere?".

Ukerric · Jun 16, 2013

Ukerric_sl said:
But a PVE game doesn't have to be a WoW clone.

Expanding on this, this how, in general lines, you'd have a MMO40K unfolding.

First, academy/training. Essentially, a quick and relatively simple tutorial.

From the moment you step out of the academy and get issued your newbie gear, the game is fully open. You can pick one of the regional HQ, which acts as a kind of lobby. You can check there the tac board, which tells you which planets are on what status (safe - you can do easy solo stuff there with few enemies around to pass time - under attack - meaning you need to set up and man defenses - or being invaded - you need to clear stuff and kick alien ass out). You can attempt solo stuff or group (with friend list and some form of guild, or LFG tool), and get dropped on a complex. You cruise the halls (or corridors of space hulks, or whatever) with your squad toward the objective you picked from the available list (or got randomly assigned if LFG). Along the way, you get XP, which can be spent to open up abilities (passive/active), and achievements (which, as I said, open up some advanced gear). If you wipe, you're back on the lobby (anyone in your group can apply electroshocks outside of combat to rez; you only wipe if you all die). If you win, you can pick a new objective in the same complex from those that don't have squads assigned yet, or help some local squads for giggles, or get evaced back to the lobby.

Each complex if successful gets your side some control points. The enemy gets control points based on time, difficulty, focus (the Eldars really want this specific planet).

Difficulty ("level") is represented by military ranks, which come from achievement score (not grindable xp). Your squad can only fight in complexes if it has at least one member of required rank (the rest can be newbies, if you want to bring your low-level friends and think it's doable). Highest-level squad "lead" is going to act as "point man", i.e. tank, but anyone can potentially be the tank if needed (and medic, of course). The achievement structure rewards going for hard complexes, but you can get xp from any. Optionally: guild members can "lend" to their squadmates of the same guild any of the weapons they're entitled to, but are not using.

Here you have. Your PVE-based MMO, with objectives, meaningful influence on the world, opportunities to help groups, and whatnot. And it doesn't look like World of Warhammer at all. And it's probably a lot cheaper that WoW (hey, same initials!).

Sabbat · Jun 16, 2013

Ukerric_sl said:
From the moment you step out of the academy and get issued your newbie gear, the game is fully open.

I want you to actually read a few books from the Black Library, especially stuff from the Horus Heresy and then read this sentence again. Once you've done that, come back here and post "my bad, that's not such a hot idea if we want to play WH40K Space Marines", and not say, every other fucking MMO in existence. A Space Marine is a war machine, he doesn't stop to pick flowers, he doesn't get time to earn his way up the ranks before becoming a walking god, he is a superman, born, trained and genetically altered for years before ever seeing active service. Once that service is activated, his genetic alterations complete, he belongs mind, body and soul to the will of the Emperor. He becomes the living will, and righteous fury of the Imperium. US marines get days off, and they aren't always at war, now imagine if a US marine never got a day off from the warfront, unless he was injured and needed to to heal. The only downtime a Space Marine ever has is traveling to a new warfront, during which time they hone their bodies in battle skills, their minds in tactics and meditations, maintain their wargear, and offer devotions to the Emperor.

If you want to play a Space Marine, or an Eldar Farseer, you don't GET a newbie set of gear, and you sure as shit don't enter and leave an academy. Maybe if playing the SM side of things you only had access to the Scout archtype? or IG you just had a lasgun?

If we used Necromunda as the baseline for a "40K" style MMO, you'd have more luck with this kind of progression, which is a great idea. It's just not how you'd do a serious attempt at WH40K in all its glory.

WH40K in all its glory is the game we (me and I'm assuming a few others like Erronius) want to play -- the living-breathing, hostile universe.

...and I swear to the Emperor, that if some other cunt uses the words, tank or medic to describe any part of a supposed WH40K game, I will find the nearest Commissar and have you executed for treason.

I've come full circle, it's impossible to build a decent WH40K MMO.

Warhammer 40k: Eternal Crusade

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