Wildstar Launch Thread - Server: Stormtalon | Faction: Dominion

Mr Creed_sl said:

In an ideal world I would prefer the subscription model, but in the last 5+ years no game has been good enough (time intensive enough, really) to justify it. Yea it might have been the case 7 or 9 or 11 years ago (not to mention that back then bandwidth was actually a cost factor for the MMOs). But really how many *years* are we going to say I prefer a sub because it implies at least a modest amount of effort to make a good, consumer-oriented product. That hasnt been the case for half a dozen years. I mean I still *want* it to be the case, but it just isnt. The majority of sub games that released in the last 5 years are just as shitty as the F2P games, and go F2P within the year anyway.

That said, I am optimistic this game can at least keep up with say bi-monthly updates the size of a wow content patch (new area with quests, all leading to a new group+raid dungeon, some misc shit like path content). I would consider that worth the effective $30 per patch (consider that in relation to expansion prices and volume though... whoa). Patches with the effective price of a new AAA game (4-5 months per patch = $60-75) would be "not worth the money" in todays market for me unless I really love the game. And I'm not alone in that if you look at WoW and how people resub for expansions/patches, max them in that one month then quit (effectively valuing that patch as $15).

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The problem is not that a sub fee is an indication of quality at all. The problem is when cash shops are involved the game is designed to make you spend money. You are being completely manipulated in ways a lot of us wouldn't even notice to buy things from the cash shop. A sub fee does away with all that and has everyone on an equal playing field. Now instead of creating a game that makes you spend money they will create a game that will make you log in. You have two completely different motives when designing a game to be sub fee or cash shop. When designing for a cash shop you couldn't care less about how much someone plays it is all about how much someone spends. When you are designing for a sub fee you are trying to get people hooked into the world so they never want to leave. HUGE difference.

This is all a sub fee is these days. They are not guarantees for a good quality game.

Tmac47_sl said:

You say this and my inclination is to agree, but honestly, vanity items that look pretty are sometimes enough to incentivize spending. League of Legends comes to mind when thinking of a game that is F2P, but doesn't twist your arm to spend money. They makelotsof money.

The model for making money in LoL is merely creating extra skins for champions and accessing more champions faster. It's a great model and avoids a lot of the negative F2P design trends people are citing.



Again, this isn't necessarily the case 100% of the time. Sometimes, providing pretty vanity items, which are the same at the core, is manipulation enough. Companies do this with cars, shampoo, candy, etc.

Have you ever heard the saying, "There's more than one way to skin a cat."? The same holds true with the F2P business model.

I'm sure that the goal of anysuccessfulgame designer is to create a game that will encourage people to actually play it. So, arguing that designers make games without thinking about people playing it, is a bit disingenuous don't you think?

If there are no players, there is no one to pay you. So, the foundation of any game is having people there to play it...then you can make money.

Credit Card Portal - The Game!, doesn't sound like very much fun does it?

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See this is where the whole model breaks down. You are trying to compare a Moba's F2P system with an MMO. Whether it was a coincidence or LoL was built from the ground up to be F2P I'm not sure but what is clearly evident is that Moba games and F2P models simply work.

Whether MMO's finally find the perfect system or not is irrelevant because the fact of the matter is they haven't. Devs will create a game they want people to play in and then they start trying to mold it to a F2P model which in turn cuts pieces out of a whole or adds on things that don't quiet sit right. That's disingenuous.

Immersion, persistence, economy Moba's don't have or need these. MMO's on the other hand are pretty much built on these things and yet with MMO's being SO different from Mobas people persist with the idea that if a Moba can do the f2p model right an MMO can. As of right now that is just incorrect. Square peg round hole. Look at D3 people said "Just don't used the RMAH" what they forgot to mention is the game became unplayable unless you used the RMAH. Blizzard or Activision being the greedy cunts that they are decided to funnel you towards the RMAH. 3.5million boxes sold in the first 24 hours wasn't enough. They NEEDED more.

We could also sit here and say "Yeah cosmetic items are great for cash shops" and yet every time we do we turn the corner and a Dev team can't help themselves and they begin to slide down that slippery slope first an inch then a mile.

Also unless a studio is independent at the end of the day the guys with the money make the decisions. If they think a F2P model that milks a smaller amount of players for huge profit margins they will do it. Long story short comparing LoL's business model to an MMO's is simply wrong. Until someone thinks of a new way to apply the F2P model it simply takes away from the MMO experience. A sub fee used to GIVE something to the MMO gamer. Where as I feel MMO F2P models restrict players.

DMK_sl said:

Immersion, persistence, economy Moba's don't have or need these. MMO's on the other hand are pretty much built on these things and yet with MMO's being SO different from Mobas people persist with the idea that if a Moba can do the f2p model right an MMO can. As of right now that is just incorrect. Square peg round hole. Look at D3 people said "Just don't used the RMAH" what they forgot to mention is the game became unplayable unless you used the RMAH. Blizzard or Activision being the greedy cunts that they are decided to funnel you towards the RMAH. 3.5million boxes sold in the first 24 hours wasn't enough. They NEEDED more.

We could also sit here and say "Yeah cosmetic items are great for cash shops" and yet every time we do we turn the corner and a Dev team can't help themselves and they begin to slide down that slippery slope first an inch then a mile.

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This is exactly the issue I have with F2P model as well (in addition to how much of a pain in the ass it generally is). Essentially by introducing that mechanism into the game, you are providing the bean - counters in the back office a 'lever' to pull whenever they want to increase/decrease revenue from the game itself. I think we would all agree that most developers WANT to make a game that people want to play, unfortunately though, the devs are only part of the equation - Marketing, distribution and a cast of 10 million other cunts are involved as well and generally they control the purse strings and timelines.

By providing these people with a mechanism whereby they can control the 'economy' of the game (whether you are talking about in game cash, distribution of content or whatever that economy looks like), you shift the power away from the devs who WANT to make a game you want to play, to a game where you want to pay.

I kinda wish MMOs would adapt the DLC concept.

That way they get their sub-equivalent amount of money if the manage to put out sufficient content, but if they sit on their laurels doing coke like some dev teams they get nothing... also an incentive to produce content in a timely manner. I'm fine with $10-25 for what usually passes as a content patch in WoW (sure DLC turned into $10 for 4 weapons and 10 minutes play sometimes, but you could just not buy those), I just dont like paying for "nothing" in the 6 months between them (unless I really love the game - kinda need this disclaimer because I tend to throw unhealthy amounts of money at some things).

omg don't shit up this thread too with "what I wish or should be in my MMOs".

Since they basically killed the ongoing hype with their "CBT3 is done, we'll be back within months instead of putting beta phases back-to-back" thing, I'm curious about future changes. I hope they get rid of the LAS system which is I think too limiting gameplay wise. I also hope they'll be ready to show up warplots / 40 man raids, because right now it's just an empty shell. I'm pleased about the sub model, because Guild Wars 2' Arenanet game showed us how limited a game without sub can be with addent content past release. I also know having a sub doesn't mean quality at all (Age of Conan, Warhammer, Aion, Rift, etc) therefore all bets are off regarding content past launch. We'll see how / if they can deliver.

Edit: Shit.

Ask yourself; Will I buy this?

Big W Powah!_sl said:

Ask yourself; Will I buy this?

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Really depends on whether EQ Landmark can hold my attention.

Big W Powah!_sl said:

Ask yourself; Will I buy this?

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I bet this game is gonna kill in the 14-20 segment.

The same flavour elements that will prevent me from purchasing the game will give late teens boners.

That's one thing... I bet the community in this game is gonna be new levels of awful

really? what exactly is it drawing in late teens so hard? Especially current teens who run away in terror at the thought of a non f2p/b2p game.

cinge_sl said:

really? what exactly is it drawing in late teens so hard? Especially current teens who run away in terror at the thought of a non f2p/b2p game.

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Just the general atmosphere of the game. Gremlin race. The cornball humour. The art style. It screams teen to me.

After playing enough f2p MMO's I can say that I'd rather have sub models.

The paywall doesn't keep idiots out, but it keeps the worst of the BR's out. The people that you can't figure out why they're even online and you can barely tell the difference between them being AFK and them playing the game. Unfortunately f2p models seem to directly encourage that kind of gamer and that kind of gamer will kill a MMO fairly quickly. If you've never met these people in f2p games then you pretty much are one of these people and I won't miss ya.

So while both options are admittedly shit since paywalls come with their own set of problems this is the better tasting shit.


Basically what that other guy said.

Quaid_sl said:

Just the general atmosphere of the game. Gremlin race. The cornball humour. The art style. It screams teen to me.

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So no real evidence just your gut feel?

The average age of WoW players is 30.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/22/th...e-2/#continued

Your right though the general atmosphere screams teen. Especially the art style. Sigh.

Quaid_sl said:

Just the general atmosphere of the game. Gremlin race. The cornball humour. The art style. It screams teen to me.

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Don't forget the huge floppy boobs the female characters have.