World of Warcraft: Current Year

Koushirou

Koushirou

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Don't know if this is just being old school, but something I at least noticed that annoyed me in classic were lots of the people that came from retail were just constantly either hopping guilds or had characters in numerous guilds. I guess I've just always been used to the idea that you have a guild and that's kind of it.
 
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BoozeCube

BoozeCube

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I don’t get the extreme desire for player housing, it is some of the dumbest shit.

Basically it’s just a room to go “Behold my stuff”


Worthless.
 
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Neranja

Neranja

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BoozeCube said:
Basically it’s just a room to go “Behold my stuff”
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gentlemen-behold.jpg
 
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McCheese

McCheese

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Just as worthless as collecting mounts and transmog gear. Which people go crazy over.

At least battle pets have a gameplay purpose!
 
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Khane

Khane

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Neranja said:
I know I always repeat that LFR killed friend and family raiding, and the necessity to be in such a guild. Therefore, I'll tell you something different:

Guild perks killed guilds at the low to medium skill/time investment level--which were basically the school for friends and family raiding. Because the goblins started to invite people with automated addons to their guilds to let them farm gold for them. But no one organized guild life in them, so people never were tought "how things work in real guilds". The goblins couldn't care less about the people in those guilds. These guilds basically formed the foundation of what we'd call "cesspool guilds".

It's now really hard to find people for non-high-end mythic raiding, because then you hear from people "why would I need to apply to a guild?".
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This isn't true. Friends and Family and Casual guilds are still alive and well in retail. And its incredibly easy to run normal and heroic raids.

Like... the raids themselves are so easy that even the biggest mouthbreathers on earth don't hurt your progress. If anything Modern WoW is MORE friendly to these types of guilds because of how easy it is.

Mythic raiding is an entirely different ball game however.
 
Merrith

Merrith

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Koushirou said:
Don't know if this is just being old school, but something I at least noticed that annoyed me in classic were lots of the people that came from retail were just constantly either hopping guilds or had characters in numerous guilds. I guess I've just always been used to the idea that you have a guild and that's kind of it.
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Back in the days of Classic, you didn't have the server transfers available where people could just hop around so easily. You kind of built up a reputation on your server, and each server community got to know each other. Long a thing of the past, even by the end of TBC people only had to wait 3 months or something to server hop.
 
Falstaff

Falstaff

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Koushirou said:
Don't know if this is just being old school, but something I at least noticed that annoyed me in classic were lots of the people that came from retail were just constantly either hopping guilds or had characters in numerous guilds. I guess I've just always been used to the idea that you have a guild and that's kind of it.
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I'm with you. When someone recently said they were going to park their alts in another guild my reaction was WTF???
 
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Chris

Chris

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Cinge said:
I can agree and see most of his points except the guild one.


"In Classic, your guild is a big deal to create cohesion, but as WoW emphasized the solo experience more as time went on, that socialization element was lost"

I am curious how he thinks guilds have changed from classic to now. You still join a guild to raid, make dungeon groups easier/quicker, to pvp and even some leveling guilds. Basically exactly like classic. You still mostly solo to level(like classic). How was it lost? It's basically the same thing. Guilds are still a pretty big focus for players, except the ones that just dont care and will pug forever, again no different from classic. Unless he is just upset at more solo friendly activities on top of all the group stuff, things like WQs, pet battles or upcoming torghast.


I still find it odd blizzard has not given wow any kind of Guild House/zone or something. Unless they just don't want players sitting in their guild halls/house and making the major cities empty.
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A good guild was a requirement to get epic gear. Now world quests just shit epic gear out in seconds and you can even see on the map which item you'll get.
 
Neranja

Neranja

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Khane said:
Like... the raids themselves are so easy that even the biggest mouthbreathers on earth don't hurt your progress.
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Every time someone says that god invents a bigger mouthbreather. Guild had to sit people on N'Zoth because even with Mythic geared people in the raid (ilvl 475/130) you can't carry them. Your perception of "easy" is not the same as for these people, mostly because you obviously don't associate with the bottom 50%. They are invisible to you. If you really want to look into the abyss go to LFR N'Zoth.

Also, we already had that discussion. For shits and giggles I went with my alt to such a guild. It had around 860 characters in it. If at least 20% of those people are new players, then they have a warped perception of what a guild is supposed to be and do.
 
jayrebb

jayrebb

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Cinge said:
I can agree and see most of his points except the guild one.


"In Classic, your guild is a big deal to create cohesion, but as WoW emphasized the solo experience more as time went on, that socialization element was lost"

I am curious how he thinks guilds have changed from classic to now. You still join a guild to raid, make dungeon groups easier/quicker, to pvp and even some leveling guilds. Basically exactly like classic. You still mostly solo to level(like classic). How was it lost? It's basically the same thing. Guilds are still a pretty big focus for players, except the ones that just dont care and will pug forever, again no different from classic. Unless he is just upset at more solo friendly activities on top of all the group stuff, things like WQs, pet battles or upcoming torghast.


I still find it odd blizzard has not given wow any kind of Guild House/zone or something. Unless they just don't want players sitting in their guild halls/house and making the major cities empty.
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The McGuild isn't a guild.

The reasons for the rise of the McGuild are numerous.
 
a c i d.f l y

a c i d.f l y

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You'll see Guild housing before Character housing. Imagine something like Star Trek Online where everyone builds towards shit, like the Garrison. But it'll be dumped just like Garrisons in the next expansion because they refuse to continually support or integrate or expand on existing systems when a new expansion releases because it's a completely separate development team. Why you see vastly different things every other expansion.

Star Trek Online did "fleets" very well. You could have clusters of guilds under one umbrella, with separate fleet bases. Construct various pieces of your fleet base, each is tiered, with a variety of unlocks. Each gave you access to different types of fleet upgrades. Gear you couldn't get anywhere else. Bridge and Duty crew you couldn't get anywhere else. And fully decking out the base takes almost 2 years, and then they add new pieces that take another 6 months for each expansion. You're always going back to pick up new gear/crew/tokens to purchase new ships. But it does end up being more... mobile game-ish. But it's been relevant in the game for 10 years now.

Unlike fucking anything in WOW save maybe regurgitated raids. BFA was the first that really had you return to old areas. And we saw what they did with that. Completely just fucking destroyed two main cities. Oh. OK.
pajamakid.jpg
 
Daidraco

Daidraco

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Neranja said:
Every time someone says that god invents a bigger mouthbreather. Guild had to sit people on N'Zoth because even with Mythic geared people in the raid (ilvl 475/130) you can't carry them. Your perception of "easy" is not the same as for these people, mostly because you obviously don't associate with the bottom 50%. They are invisible to you. If you really want to look into the abyss go to LFR N'Zoth.

Also, we already had that discussion. For shits and giggles I went with my alt to such a guild. It had around 860 characters in it. If at least 20% of those people are new players, then they have a warped perception of what a guild is supposed to be and do.
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LFR is a terrible metric to gauge the player base. You and I both know that the majority of those players can do at least a normal raid easily. The idea behind LFR is flawed. Flawed in how it allows people to do the encounters with little to no knowledge of each encounter and still complete it. Thats why it just pisses people off that they release an LFR encounter with a mechanic that can actually wipe the raid.

The golden opportunity they had with that development time would have been where you fight your way through the raid as a single player, with pop ups teaching you how to do the simple mechanics of normal that wont kill your character and wont progress until you do them correctly. Mobs have drastically less HP, and it takes your average player 30 minutes to get through each "wing". You see all cinematics, and are awarded a single piece of non tier normal tier loot for each wing.

Instead, they spend more time on figuring out how to dumb down the raid enough that a "mouth breather" could do it. But whatever, thats not the tier I play at and could care less.
 
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Khane

Khane

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Neranja said:
Every time someone says that god invents a bigger mouthbreather. Guild had to sit people on N'Zoth because even with Mythic geared people in the raid (ilvl 475/130) you can't carry them. Your perception of "easy" is not the same as for these people, mostly because you obviously don't associate with the bottom 50%. They are invisible to you. If you really want to look into the abyss go to LFR N'Zoth.

Also, we already had that discussion. For shits and giggles I went with my alt to such a guild. It had around 860 characters in it. If at least 20% of those people are new players, then they have a warped perception of what a guild is supposed to be and do.
Click to expand...

I am not sure how someone could possibly believe normal and heroic guilds no longer exist and cannot complete content? They are there. There are a ton of them. They even actually clear content weekly. These guilds have never gone anywhere and if anything the multiple difficulties has made it easier for these guilds to thrive.

LFR is stupid, for any number of reasons already mentioned ad nauseum. LFR has not, and never will, kill actual guilds in retail WoW. And your anecdotes are meaningless to anyone in this thread who has actually played retail WoW in any fashion since Legion released. Because we all know that those guilds exist. In fact this forum had one of those guilds for multiple expansions. But then Noodle broke everyone's hearts.

At least BfA had made LFR better than it was in Legion (until corruption released). I never had to step foot into a single LFR raid at all in BfA. There was no real point. And thank god for that. In Legion I did them every week until I finally got all my BiS legendaries.
 
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Neranja

Neranja

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Khane said:
I am not sure how someone could possibly believe normal and heroic guilds no longer exist and cannot complete content? They are there.
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Sure there are, but at the bottom end a lot of people are not entering the normal raid scene. The usual progression would be normal → heroic → mythic for new players as they improve. LFR removed a lot of the people that could be interested in raiding from the equation because of the ease of access.

This may be a cultural difference between US and EU servers, but at the end of the day your anecdotes stand against mine.
 
Neranja

Neranja

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Daidraco said:
You and I both know that the majority of those players can do at least a normal raid easily.
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The players I talked with can't be assed to learn mechanics or do "progress" raids, where you basically have to learn the mechanics and wipe a few times when undergeared at the start of the expansions. They want the epic loot, but aren't willing to invest time into it. These people are (and never will be) raiding material.
 
Khane

Khane

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Neranja

Neranja

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Khane said:
15,545 Heroic N'Zoth kills by unique guilds/groups
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These numbers don't mean what you think they mean. They are broken down to freely associated groups (from logs), and you have no idea which groups have just renamed themsevles, have different player setups, are pickup groups, or worse: groups that got paid for the kill. To throw numbers out there: For the EU I have in wowprogress: 15261 guilds with at least 1/12 N, and 6120 of them have at least 1/12 M. 12/12 H reaches into 9215, so around 9000 guilds have 12/12 heroic. The 1558 of 15261 guilds in the database have 12/12 M, so around 10% of all raiding guilds in the database are top tier and have 12/12 M. Who would've thought?

At the end it is all useless speculation, because you need to break it down to an account level, not a player/guild level. And only Blizzard can do that.
 
Khane

Khane

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Those numbers mean exactly what I said they mean.
 
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Cinge

Cinge

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Neranja said:
Sure there are, but at the bottom end a lot of people are not entering the normal raid scene. The usual progression would be normal → heroic → mythic for new players as they improve. LFR removed a lot of the people that could be interested in raiding from the equation because of the ease of access.

This may be a cultural difference between US and EU servers, but at the end of the day your anecdotes stand against mine.
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There is a lot of heroic guilds And they usually do normal first. At the most they do 1-3 mobs in mythic and are happy with that.

On the flipside there are also a lot of just casual guilds who dont raid at all, their members just do LFR and heroic dungeons with maybe some mythic dungeons and they are happy with that.
 
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Fucker

Fucker

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Daidraco said:
LFR is a terrible metric to gauge the player base. You and I both know that the majority of those players can do at least a normal raid easily. The idea behind LFR is flawed. Flawed in how it allows people to do the encounters with little to no knowledge of each encounter and still complete it. Thats why it just pisses people off that they release an LFR encounter with a mechanic that can actually wipe the raid.
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I normally would have agreed with this, but things are bad out there. I gave up trying to get the 15th anniversary mount because people simply couldn't kill LK at all. I was in a LFR raid in Legion...forgot where, and people kept wiping and zerging on yard trash. Have you seen an entire raid wipe on yard trash not once but multiple times?

Or recently, Nathanos Blightcaller. Not a raid encounter at all, but I've seen half of the raid group die on the bright green DONT STAND HERE on the ground. I've seen it happen 3/4 times I did it.

LFR is designed to be easy for people of mediocre ability to complete, but I've seen more failures than successes in LFR. The last group dungeon I did, I was on my DK that had unupgraded benthic gear and blue WQ weapons and I was at the top of the DPS chart against people with 415 gear. I should have been dead last by a long way.

You could redesign all the classes and give them ONE ability to use, and people would still find a way to fuck it up.
 
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