World of Warcraft: Current Year

kaid · Apr 20, 2020

Ukerric said:
To be honest, it is really hard to make professions worthwhile in a MMO.

The only way your products sell is if it is hard to make them:

Either it is hard to raise the skill (at least to the "worth it" point)

Or it is hard to get the proper recipes (the one that will interest people)

Or it is hard to get the components for those recipes

Any of those three will make it frustrating to the average player. A high-end crafter should be like a high-end raider: someone relatively rare and not always found. Many willing, few managing.

So, once your philosophy is that every player should experience any given facet of the game, then profession can't be hard to level, can't rely on hard recipes or too rare components. The latter were both tried by Blizzard at one point, and they apparently failed enough to achieve Blizzard's objectives that they were buried deep, never to be let out again.

Weirdly WOD was one of the very few times when crafting had really good rewards but the way you made the stuff was just stupid. People did not care for the automation stuff but the actual rewards were just about perfect. All of the items were amazing for leveling alts and the limitation of how many you could equip kept them from being problematic. Also if you were a crafter you could keep upgrading the couple pieces you had to a reasonable level which again was limited enough to keep it from being a problem while being good enough to be wanted.

Fyff · Apr 20, 2020

Bragon said:
Again, fyff has no idea what the fuck is being talked about. Killing in mythic BOD a month ago? Sit down.

He's not talking about nerfing the end boss after a while, he's talking about OVERTUNING an entire raid tier because of that dumb fucking race. That is what most people who actually raid mythic have a problem with.

The tier is always tuned for people who fucking buy hundreds of millions worth in BoE gear, people who will spend entire days farming pearls to get the right procs on the pieces to give you the DPS you NEED (mandatory)
Everyone else has no chance of clearing this shit until gear catches up and nerfs start to trickle down. That is what the raiding experience has been in WoW mythic for a while now

You are the reason why this fucking game has awful implementations in end game, people like you who go drool on the forums on shit they have no idea about, defending blizzard on everyone of their stupid decisions while you have yet to fucking actually experience what is being talked about.

I didn't defend their decision. I just said people, like myself, who are not currently raiding mythic, don't have a right to be upset about shit that doesn't effect them and will never effect them.

Leon · Apr 20, 2020

That doesn't make his point any less valid, a lot of mythic raiders are having the exact complaint.

Tuning an entire tier for 0.01 percent of your playerbase is completely retarded and should change.

And your viewpoint was : who cares if they nerf a boss 10 times later it doesn't affect you. That tells me you don't even understand the problem to begin with. it's not the nerfs, it's how the tier is set originally that is the problem

Foggy · Apr 20, 2020

That is an incredibly silly viewpoint. If they make all their content too hard for you to consume, you have no right to complain? Mythic being absurdly hard affects all types of players.

Daidraco · Apr 20, 2020

I dont know about your experience with raiding current Mythic content, but Booze has been right there with me. When I came back to Legion after a while, there was a bunch of people raiding mythic. Ironically, a lot of people that said they never would. I understand your point in saying that having an opinion on the matter at hand would be unjust. But this problem has persisted across multiple tiers of raiding, multiple expansions. Nothing has changed for the better. It's no longer about skill, but how much preparation you can do to invalidate certain mechanics. Then those same mechanics are nerfed, or outright removed. I used to be a big fan of Mythic + until late into the expansion for Legion, it became more about an eSport, than it was about having fun. Much of which I fear is how the Tower of Torghast or w/e is going to be.

Arbitrary · Apr 20, 2020

I still can't believe the amount of gold that guilds have been allowed to spend in search of firsts every single tier.

Bondurant · Apr 20, 2020

Arbitrary said:
I still can't believe the amount of gold that guilds have been allowed to spend in search of firsts every single tier.

BoE BIS corruption items was a very dumb move, even though it's virtually accessible to anyone, it creates a P2W aspect of raiding WoW doesn't need.

Daidraco · Apr 20, 2020

Id venture to say that Blizzard has manipulated the game with a P2W mindset every time they launch new world first content. The tokens etc. are all there for them to not only have an immediate surge in tokens sold, but a trickle down effect because of the token price raise in gold. Then, adjust content as the desire is no longer there to accommodate the crowd that will not do that - which is much bigger, without a doubt.

BoozeCube · Apr 20, 2020

Fyff is just a retard so he doesn't understand shit about this game other than his daily wizard chores and bottom barrel gameplay. I can try breaking it down but it will still go over his head but I will lay it out once again. This in an MMORPG not Dark Souls or Super Meat Boy. As such it is meant to be played as a group activity, group activities designed around absolutely perfect gameplay of 20 jobless euro fags needing to play the game at an absolutely professional level because Ion has a hard on for trying to create something they can't beat is terrible design. Once this content has been cleared by this infinitesimally small fraction of a % of the playerbase it then has to be nerfed X number of times so the top 1-2% of the guilds can then have their shot at it. Then as gear inflation and new patch notes hit with giant buffs to cloaks and things people like Fyff can finish their AOTC 5 months after content release and then kill 2 bosses in the Mythic raid and pretend they are hot shit.

People used to argue designing raids around a small % of the playerbase was bad and they use that as justification for LFR horseshit but then in the same sentence they will argue that nonstop development to circumvent addons and catering to Method is a-ok. The cognitive dissonance here is amazing. The arms race against addons is a no win situation, either they need to limit shit like weak-auras and upgrade their base UI to a reasonable standard or they should just accept that players are going to seek ways to announce/simplify/be made away of the information in the games be it procs/ boss mechanics/ etc.

MMORPG's are at there core a social experience, current retail is outside of bleeding edge content is a single player game. You need zero interaction with players outside of higher end M+, Higher end Raid tiers, and arena PvP. The rest of the game has devolved into not even needing to speak to a person for outdoor raids, and the very very highest end mythic content is so limited than even if you do have a few friends who you run some basic content with you often need to exclude them from the most rewarding content in the game. Needing to exclude players more often than not be it M+, Mythic raiding, PvP is the antithesis to what an MMORPG is meant to provide. It is good to have some challenge in the game to overcome but when you need to spend hours on 3rd party websites to sim gear, completely reformat and customize your UI, download dozens of weak auras just to play optimally then something has gone drastically wrong. Both extremes of this curve run counter intuitive to community.

sadris · Apr 20, 2020

I hate playing those mobile games. You know the ones where you have to log on every three hours to click your buildings and collect coins to buy better buildings to get more coins?

That is BFA. Log on every 8 hours to do a wizard chore/world quest. You need to spend your wizard chore allowance on reputation. So you can buy a cloak or weapon or azerite shoulder or whatever the fuck. So then you can finally play the game, be it raids or mythics dungeons.

TJT · Apr 20, 2020

BoozeCube said:
Fyff is just a retard so he doesn't understand shit about this game other than his daily wizard chores and bottom barrel gameplay. I can try breaking it down but it will still go over his head but I will lay it out once again. This in an MMORPG not Dark Souls or Super Meat Boy. As such it is meant to be played as a group activity, group activities designed around absolutely perfect gameplay of 20 jobless euro fags needing to play the game at an absolutely professional level because Ion has a hard on for trying to create something they can't beat is terrible design. Once this content has been cleared by this infinitesimally small fraction of a % of the playerbase it then has to be nerfed X number of times so the top 1-2% of the guilds can then have their shot at it. Then as gear inflation and new patch notes hit with giant buffs to cloaks and things people like Fyff can finish their AOTC 5 months after content release and then kill 2 bosses in the Mythic raid and pretend they are hot shit.

People used to argue designing raids around a small % of the playerbase was bad and they use that as justification for LFR horseshit but then in the same sentence they will argue that nonstop development to circumvent addons and catering to Method is a-ok. The cognitive dissonance here is amazing. The arms race against addons is a no win situation, either they need to limit shit like weak-auras and upgrade their base UI to a reasonable standard or they should just accept that players are going to seek ways to announce/simplify/be made away of the information in the games be it procs/ boss mechanics/ etc.

MMORPG's are at there core a social experience, current retail is outside of bleeding edge content is a single player game. You need zero interaction with players outside of higher end M+, Higher end Raid tiers, and arena PvP. The rest of the game has devolved into not even needing to speak to a person for outdoor raids, and the very very highest end mythic content is so limited than even if you do have a few friends who you run some basic content with you often need to exclude them from the most rewarding content in the game. Needing to exclude players more often than not be it M+, Mythic raiding, PvP is the antithesis to what an MMORPG is meant to provide. It is good to have some challenge in the game to overcome but when you need to spend hours on 3rd party websites to sim gear, completely reformat and customize your UI, download dozens of weak auras just to play optimally then something has gone drastically wrong. Both extremes of this curve run counter intuitive to community.

Back in the day people wiped, and prob still do on the Classic server, to Blackwing Lair. Fuck people wiping to Lethon THIS week and shit like that. How many people failed to clear Blackwing Lair and didn't give a shit? Because they were having fun doing whatever.

It is the absolute truth that MMORPG end game difficulty needs to be organized around a small core of your guild needing to understand shit like game mechanics in any particular depth. Such as tanks understanding hit and defense caps and threat generation. Healers understanding heal priority and niche support roles knowing when it's their time to shine. Such as, "DURRR YOU ARE DRUID DECURSE CURSES OK?" The rest of your retards can just be the retards they are. Retards who need to show up and do their best and can contribute in other ways like farming mats for the guild. Crafting. But most importantly being there on raid nights continuously. Diligently working towards getting keyed up and things like that.

Sumdain x · Apr 20, 2020

I typed a long response then realized its not really worth it, the short version is; lots of people complaining that they need 15+ cloak, bis corruption, thousands of pots/food/flasks, rank 3 essences and that mythics need to be easier. It really doesn't matter because even with all of these things if youre a shit player, youre a shit player, nerfing mythic is not going to help you.

This is the most balanced raid tier probably in the last 2 expacs. go into mythic this week when xserver opens and pug the first 3, should be fairly easy.

Oh yea, here's my epeen parses on Brewmaster (on Heroic) in case anyone thinks im a "blue parser". I still need to actually try and AOE on wrathion pillars to pad my numbers and on ilgy i need tank that can actually hold aggro on me, usually i just fuck off and kill blobs.

Khane · Apr 20, 2020

Tank Spec DPS parses in Heroic difficulty with a highlighted summary tab for "Post-Nerf".

I don't actually get what you're trying to say here?

xzi · Apr 20, 2020

Post-Nerf just means current (hotfix)patch honestly. Pre-Nerf means when infinite stars was doing.. well infinite damage.

& I mean, you can literally pug the first 4 bosses of mythic nyalotha right now, I don't know if that constitutes as the entire raid tier being tuned only to the top 1%. All it takes is communication on discord, and literally only communication between tanks and maybe every once in a while callouts. If you want to keep pushing maybe actually join a guild and actually play the game.

Or just complain that it's too hard when heroic exists, or just complain that's too hard when normal exists, or just complain normal is too hard when lfr exists, or just complain lfr is too hard when classic exists

The only thing I'll agree with in this entire thread is that anything in the game outside of high end content (pve or pvp) is better suited for solo play and that's garbage. They claim they want to find a way to get back to that but I'm not sure how you manage that.

Sumdain x · Apr 20, 2020

Yea post nerf is just after they fixed infinite stars and echoing void.

my point is people are bitching about content they’ll never be able to do no matter how much it’s nerfed until you get another 50 ilevels. Mythic is more accessible now than its even been if you just play good.

Foggy · Apr 20, 2020

"Most balanced raid tier." Have to install a specific boss mod and pair it with a specific WA to have a chance of killing Mythic Ra-den. Seems good.

Sumdain x · Apr 20, 2020

Then don’t do it? No one is forcing you to kill raden.

oh no! have to click import on a WA.

Khane · Apr 20, 2020

Haha. That's the best part of the argument every time we get into it here. The only defense of that idiotic position is "Well just don't do it if you don't like it!"

It's not surprising someone making such a low effort argument is posting heroic tank DPS parses as some sort of validation that "Mythic is more accessible than it's ever been" (it's not).

TL;DR of this argument every time it happens is people who actually do or did Mythic and have multiple Cutting Edge achievements post a laundry list of criticism and reasoning for said criticism. And then apologists come in and literally only say "Nobody is forcing you to do it!". As if the fact that you don't HAVE to do it means you can't criticize problems with the tuning.

Sumdain x · Apr 20, 2020

I mean I can link all of my cutting edges for every legion patch if it adds credibility.

if you don’t like what’s required to mythic raid then don’t do it. I retired in uldir because it interfered with my board game night and I needed a break.

Khane · Apr 20, 2020

Sumdain x said:
I mean I can link all of my cutting edges for every legion patch if it adds credibility.

So how come you stopped Mythic raiding? After all it's more accessible than ever!

P.S. I already know the answer to that because you've posted it here. And it is ironically for the very same reasons everyone else here like myself stopped Mythic raiding, and is what is being bemoaned right in this very discussion. You got burned out and the logistics of maintaing a mythic raiding roster are preposterous and lend themselves to high turnover and not even being able to recognize half the people you raid with each raid tier. As a direct result of the tuning. It just isn't fun anymore and hasn't been for a long time.

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