DC Universe (Batman vs Superman thread).

Gavinmad

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I don't read much DC comics, but the Kaldur Aqualad seems fine. At least from what I've seen on Young Justice.
Everything about Young Justice is great, although I haven't watched Season 3 because I just assume it's fuckin terrible. I assume any version of him in the DCEU would have his only real significance be the fact that he's gay and look how accepting everyone is of his gayness and look how virtuous we are for putting this in our movie.
 
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a c i d.f l y

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So, I'm going on record as all you Justice League haters are overly critical.

TL;DR: Justice League is totally fine. It's not Avengers quality, but it's honestly fine. It's better than Avengers: Age of Ultron. Given the turd that WW84 was, I think if we all look at JL again we can see it's a completely fine movie.

Justice League by itself is a difficult movie to pull off: we have to cover the basics of a handful of super heroes, including Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman. We have to give enough background to make them interesting, but not enough to bore the audience. It's hard enough to introduce multiple characters, and then give us a bad guy that we care about, and then a plot. That's a lot for one movie to carry. ... Not to mention that the director's daughter committed suicide during post production, which led to them bringing in Joss Whedon to re-edit/finish the movie.

Plot: The plots is fine enough. It's established from the beginning. Batman discovers there are these three boxes, and these parademons, and knows he is dealing with something bigger than him and extra-terrestrial. He immediately decides to "assemble the team", and goes after the other members of the Justice League in an attempt to recruit them. Literally within five minutes of the movie starting, we have a defined plot, and know who the antagonist is. So we have a mission we have to accomplish. There isn't much, if any, meandering, and the plot never loses its course. It's always "recruit good guys, find boxes, fight bad guy." I actually liked the McGuffins where it is three boxes of power given to the three different species (humans, Amazonians, Atlantians)... boy, sure sounds like Lord of the Rings (humans, dwarves, elves.)

Batman: Batfleck was fucking fine. Yes, he used guns. He's not fighting the Penguin or any other human being. He's fighting paranormal demons from another world along with a bad guy that is four times his size and is a conquerer of worlds. He knows he is outclassed and is doing what he can to save the world he lives in. He reluctantly takes the role of leader, while wishing others (Wonder Woman, Superman) had the role. He's fine as Bruce Wayne and Batman. Yes he looks "heavy", but part of that is the style of his armor.

Flash: Flash was fine. Ezra Miller was funny and insecure in the role. Again, this was some nerdy kid who is into Japanese cartoons that gets his powers. He isn't some badass trained fighter. He's scared, he doesn't know what to do. He just has a skill that Batman is interested in and is trying his best to help. I truly enjoy the scene where the League encounters Steppenwolfe for the first time, and Batman coaches Flash with "Get in, get out, don't fight, just save one." And Flash learns from it. Flash also has some great slow motion scenes, for instance when Wonder Woman is fighting Steppenwolfe and drops her sword, and Flash runs down and pushes the sword back up towards her. I wish they didn't end that scene with him tripping, because it's ok for him to excel without comedic relief. He was completely fine in the entirety of the movie, with no complaints. Imagine you are Flash, and all of a sudden your thrust into this world where, at one point, you're taking on a newly resurrected Superman, and fucking Superman is taking a punch at you. How would you act?

Cyborg: His introduction / first half of the movie is bad. I wonder how much of this was the result of two directors? His initial scenes, acting, writing were really bad. But in the third act he's totally fine, he's funny, and enjoyable. However, I thought it was great writing for how he was tied into the story. He's born of a motherbox, and his dad is a scientist that works with the boxes. He gets dragged into the fight primarily because his father is kidnapped by Steppenwolfe who is looking for the boxes. It tied together nicely.

Aquaman: This is an alpha male, badass motherfucker. Momoa was fantastic. He looks insanely awesome, and he's such a "bro" that every line that comes out of his mouth is fun. "My man!" "All right!" I cracked up each line. And his scene where he's sitting on the Lasso of Truth was hilarious. His action sequences are fine, all around fantastic. The scenes in Atlantis when Steppenwolfe is stealing the stone, those were poorly done, and I'm glad they figured out underwater action / dialogue for the Aquaman movie.

Wonder Woman: Her opening scene is fantastic, and she's honestly great throughout this movie. She continues her role as a badass Amazonian warrior. She stands toe to toe with gods and conquerers without a second thought. She's fearless. She's beautiful. There's something about Gal Gadot where she is wholesome, lovely, and just so intoxicating that every scene with her on the screen is a treat. Her action scenes are fantastic and she looks great doing them. Her weak parts are her constantly lamenting for Steve Trevor. We get it, you miss him, it was 100 years ago, shut the fuck up.

Superman: He was totally fine. Yes his lip looked weird, are we really going to trash a movie based on that? It does suck that he's so overly powered, but he is the biggest badass in comic books, so what can we do? It was interesting when he was resurrected and was confused and fought his friends. I thought his acting was off then. I'm interested to see what happens in the Snyder cut with him, because he was barely in this movie.

Steppenwolfe: Terrible villain. One of the worst. As bad as Ultron was. He was uninteresting, looked like CGI from 15 years ago. By far the worst part of the movie.

In summary, this movie had its faults, with it being a mish-mash of two directors visions, some poor writing, a bad villain, but overall it was fine, fun, coherent, and linear. But it's absolutely not the giant turd that people make it out to be. Especially when compared to WW84. Please give this a re-watch!
Tl ; Dr, counterpoint, the Justice League animated films that did it 1000x better. The live action had its moments, but of course Whedon had to shit on it.
 

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There's so much right with the Justice League movie, but so many things they fucked up, like nuclear dick punch bad that it ruins the whole experience. Snyder had a vision, I see it, and it still pisses me off that Whedon basically took a shit on it. I'm full mast at the thought of a Snyder cut.

You point out quite a few moments that stand out, and if the rest of the movie wasn't littered with dumb catshit, would have been awesome. CGI lip is just the tip. Superman carrying an entire apartment complex... And the dumb audio spliced in. "Is this guy bothering you?"
 
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Chris

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Justice League by itself is a difficult movie to pull off: we have to cover the basics of a handful of super heroes, including Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman. We have to give enough background to make them interesting, but not enough to bore the audience. It's hard enough to introduce multiple characters, and then give us a bad guy that we care about, and then a plot. That's a lot for one movie to carry.
Of course it's difficult, but the movie industry is the pinnacle of a career in entertainment. They have the best talent and the most money, why make excuses for them?

Marvel laid out the blueprint of how you do this, introduce the main characters and even the villian in solo movies to leave room for the plot of the team up movie. They were missing a second Superman movie and Flash/Batman/Aquaman movies (two of which we still don't have??). They made obscure side movies instead like Suicide Squad, no excuses here, they had the resources. "That's a lot for one movie to carry" is bullshit, nobody put a gun to their head and forced them to put it all in one movie in that way.

They don't have faith in the source material and tried to fix it, every successful adaptation has faith in the source material and sticks fairly closely to it (Lord of the Rings/Harry Potter). Every unsuccessful adaptation is embarassed by it's source material and ignores it.
 
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Sevens

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So, I'm going on record as all you Justice League haters are overly critical.

TL;DR: Justice League is totally fine. It's not Avengers quality, but it's honestly fine. It's better than Avengers: Age of Ultron. Given the turd that WW84 was, I think if we all look at JL again we can see it's a completely fine movie.

Justice League by itself is a difficult movie to pull off: we have to cover the basics of a handful of super heroes, including Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman. We have to give enough background to make them interesting, but not enough to bore the audience. It's hard enough to introduce multiple characters, and then give us a bad guy that we care about, and then a plot. That's a lot for one movie to carry. ... Not to mention that the director's daughter committed suicide during post production, which led to them bringing in Joss Whedon to re-edit/finish the movie.

Plot: The plots is fine enough. It's established from the beginning. Batman discovers there are these three boxes, and these parademons, and knows he is dealing with something bigger than him and extra-terrestrial. He immediately decides to "assemble the team", and goes after the other members of the Justice League in an attempt to recruit them. Literally within five minutes of the movie starting, we have a defined plot, and know who the antagonist is. So we have a mission we have to accomplish. There isn't much, if any, meandering, and the plot never loses its course. It's always "recruit good guys, find boxes, fight bad guy." I actually liked the McGuffins where it is three boxes of power given to the three different species (humans, Amazonians, Atlantians)... boy, sure sounds like Lord of the Rings (humans, dwarves, elves.)

Batman: Batfleck was fucking fine. Yes, he used guns. He's not fighting the Penguin or any other human being. He's fighting paranormal demons from another world along with a bad guy that is four times his size and is a conquerer of worlds. He knows he is outclassed and is doing what he can to save the world he lives in. He reluctantly takes the role of leader, while wishing others (Wonder Woman, Superman) had the role. He's fine as Bruce Wayne and Batman. Yes he looks "heavy", but part of that is the style of his armor.

Flash: Flash was fine. Ezra Miller was funny and insecure in the role. Again, this was some nerdy kid who is into Japanese cartoons that gets his powers. He isn't some badass trained fighter. He's scared, he doesn't know what to do. He just has a skill that Batman is interested in and is trying his best to help. I truly enjoy the scene where the League encounters Steppenwolfe for the first time, and Batman coaches Flash with "Get in, get out, don't fight, just save one." And Flash learns from it. Flash also has some great slow motion scenes, for instance when Wonder Woman is fighting Steppenwolfe and drops her sword, and Flash runs down and pushes the sword back up towards her. I wish they didn't end that scene with him tripping, because it's ok for him to excel without comedic relief. He was completely fine in the entirety of the movie, with no complaints. Imagine you are Flash, and all of a sudden your thrust into this world where, at one point, you're taking on a newly resurrected Superman, and fucking Superman is taking a punch at you. How would you act?

Cyborg: His introduction / first half of the movie is bad. I wonder how much of this was the result of two directors? His initial scenes, acting, writing were really bad. But in the third act he's totally fine, he's funny, and enjoyable. However, I thought it was great writing for how he was tied into the story. He's born of a motherbox, and his dad is a scientist that works with the boxes. He gets dragged into the fight primarily because his father is kidnapped by Steppenwolfe who is looking for the boxes. It tied together nicely.

Aquaman: This is an alpha male, badass motherfucker. Momoa was fantastic. He looks insanely awesome, and he's such a "bro" that every line that comes out of his mouth is fun. "My man!" "All right!" I cracked up each line. And his scene where he's sitting on the Lasso of Truth was hilarious. His action sequences are fine, all around fantastic. The scenes in Atlantis when Steppenwolfe is stealing the stone, those were poorly done, and I'm glad they figured out underwater action / dialogue for the Aquaman movie.

Wonder Woman: Her opening scene is fantastic, and she's honestly great throughout this movie. She continues her role as a badass Amazonian warrior. She stands toe to toe with gods and conquerers without a second thought. She's fearless. She's beautiful. There's something about Gal Gadot where she is wholesome, lovely, and just so intoxicating that every scene with her on the screen is a treat. Her action scenes are fantastic and she looks great doing them. Her weak parts are her constantly lamenting for Steve Trevor. We get it, you miss him, it was 100 years ago, shut the fuck up.

Superman: He was totally fine. Yes his lip looked weird, are we really going to trash a movie based on that? It does suck that he's so overly powered, but he is the biggest badass in comic books, so what can we do? It was interesting when he was resurrected and was confused and fought his friends. I thought his acting was off then. I'm interested to see what happens in the Snyder cut with him, because he was barely in this movie.

Steppenwolfe: Terrible villain. One of the worst. As bad as Ultron was. He was uninteresting, looked like CGI from 15 years ago. By far the worst part of the movie.

In summary, this movie had its faults, with it being a mish-mash of two directors visions, some poor writing, a bad villain, but overall it was fine, fun, coherent, and linear. But it's absolutely not the giant turd that people make it out to be. Especially when compared to WW84. Please give this a re-watch!
No its not, this movie is a giant fucking turd.
You had the JUSTICE LEAGUE...the premier and most loved super hero team up and you made this shit stain. You have Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash etc etc. The MOST iconic and beloved heros we have and you make this abomination? Marvel took a stable of B-list heros (and worse) and formed them into the biggest movie franchise of the modern era. JL should have destroyed the Avengers, just pummeled them into oblivion and yet you have the Avengers lauded as one of the best super hero movies ever. JL has a few apologist on the interwebs who go on and on about how the movie "is fine". JL league should never have been "fine", it should have blown us all away. But sadly it doesnt even reach the status of "fine"
 
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Kovaks

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Of course it's difficult, but the movie industry is the pinnacle of a career in entertainment. They have the best talent and the most money, why make excuses for them?

Marvel laid out the blueprint of how you do this, introduce the main characters and even the villian in solo movies to leave room for the plot of the team up movie. They were missing a second Superman movie and Flash/Batman/Aquaman movies (two of which we still don't have??). They made obscure side movies instead like Suicide Squad, no excuses here, they had the resources. "That's a lot for one movie to carry" is bullshit, nobody put a gun to their head and forced them to put it all in one movie in that way.

They don't have faith in the source material and tried to fix it, every successful adaptation has faith in the source material and sticks fairly closely to it (Lord of the Rings/Harry Potter). Every unsuccessful adaptation is embarassed by it's source material and ignores it.
Or the director has faith in the source and the studio wants trucks of money and fuckd things up i.e. the hobbit
 
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Chukzombi

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Or the director has faith in the source and the studio wants trucks of money and fuckd things up i.e. the hobbit
But but but but they needed 3 3 hour movies to tell the entire 180 page story. So much so that they had to add more characters and sideplots to filler it out.
 

Mudcrush Durtfeet

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I mean I hope it's good, but I still suspect it's likely just polishing a turd.
polished turd.jpg
 
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Ambiturner

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So, I'm going on record as all you Justice League haters are overly critical.

TL;DR: Justice League is totally fine. It's not Avengers quality, but it's honestly fine. It's better than Avengers: Age of Ultron. Given the turd that WW84 was, I think if we all look at JL again we can see it's a completely fine movie.

Justice League by itself is a difficult movie to pull off: we have to cover the basics of a handful of super heroes, including Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman. We have to give enough background to make them interesting, but not enough to bore the audience. It's hard enough to introduce multiple characters, and then give us a bad guy that we care about, and then a plot. That's a lot for one movie to carry. ... Not to mention that the director's daughter committed suicide during post production, which led to them bringing in Joss Whedon to re-edit/finish the movie.

Plot: The plots is fine enough. It's established from the beginning. Batman discovers there are these three boxes, and these parademons, and knows he is dealing with something bigger than him and extra-terrestrial. He immediately decides to "assemble the team", and goes after the other members of the Justice League in an attempt to recruit them. Literally within five minutes of the movie starting, we have a defined plot, and know who the antagonist is. So we have a mission we have to accomplish. There isn't much, if any, meandering, and the plot never loses its course. It's always "recruit good guys, find boxes, fight bad guy." I actually liked the McGuffins where it is three boxes of power given to the three different species (humans, Amazonians, Atlantians)... boy, sure sounds like Lord of the Rings (humans, dwarves, elves.)

Batman: Batfleck was fucking fine. Yes, he used guns. He's not fighting the Penguin or any other human being. He's fighting paranormal demons from another world along with a bad guy that is four times his size and is a conquerer of worlds. He knows he is outclassed and is doing what he can to save the world he lives in. He reluctantly takes the role of leader, while wishing others (Wonder Woman, Superman) had the role. He's fine as Bruce Wayne and Batman. Yes he looks "heavy", but part of that is the style of his armor.

Flash: Flash was fine. Ezra Miller was funny and insecure in the role. Again, this was some nerdy kid who is into Japanese cartoons that gets his powers. He isn't some badass trained fighter. He's scared, he doesn't know what to do. He just has a skill that Batman is interested in and is trying his best to help. I truly enjoy the scene where the League encounters Steppenwolfe for the first time, and Batman coaches Flash with "Get in, get out, don't fight, just save one." And Flash learns from it. Flash also has some great slow motion scenes, for instance when Wonder Woman is fighting Steppenwolfe and drops her sword, and Flash runs down and pushes the sword back up towards her. I wish they didn't end that scene with him tripping, because it's ok for him to excel without comedic relief. He was completely fine in the entirety of the movie, with no complaints. Imagine you are Flash, and all of a sudden your thrust into this world where, at one point, you're taking on a newly resurrected Superman, and fucking Superman is taking a punch at you. How would you act?

Cyborg: His introduction / first half of the movie is bad. I wonder how much of this was the result of two directors? His initial scenes, acting, writing were really bad. But in the third act he's totally fine, he's funny, and enjoyable. However, I thought it was great writing for how he was tied into the story. He's born of a motherbox, and his dad is a scientist that works with the boxes. He gets dragged into the fight primarily because his father is kidnapped by Steppenwolfe who is looking for the boxes. It tied together nicely.

Aquaman: This is an alpha male, badass motherfucker. Momoa was fantastic. He looks insanely awesome, and he's such a "bro" that every line that comes out of his mouth is fun. "My man!" "All right!" I cracked up each line. And his scene where he's sitting on the Lasso of Truth was hilarious. His action sequences are fine, all around fantastic. The scenes in Atlantis when Steppenwolfe is stealing the stone, those were poorly done, and I'm glad they figured out underwater action / dialogue for the Aquaman movie.

Wonder Woman: Her opening scene is fantastic, and she's honestly great throughout this movie. She continues her role as a badass Amazonian warrior. She stands toe to toe with gods and conquerers without a second thought. She's fearless. She's beautiful. There's something about Gal Gadot where she is wholesome, lovely, and just so intoxicating that every scene with her on the screen is a treat. Her action scenes are fantastic and she looks great doing them. Her weak parts are her constantly lamenting for Steve Trevor. We get it, you miss him, it was 100 years ago, shut the fuck up.

Superman: He was totally fine. Yes his lip looked weird, are we really going to trash a movie based on that? It does suck that he's so overly powered, but he is the biggest badass in comic books, so what can we do? It was interesting when he was resurrected and was confused and fought his friends. I thought his acting was off then. I'm interested to see what happens in the Snyder cut with him, because he was barely in this movie.

Steppenwolfe: Terrible villain. One of the worst. As bad as Ultron was. He was uninteresting, looked like CGI from 15 years ago. By far the worst part of the movie.

In summary, this movie had its faults, with it being a mish-mash of two directors visions, some poor writing, a bad villain, but overall it was fine, fun, coherent, and linear. But it's absolutely not the giant turd that people make it out to be. Especially when compared to WW84. Please give this a re-watch!

I agree that it's difficult to pull off, but dont see how that's relevant.

They shouldn't have even tried a super hero team up movie when only 1 of the heroes has even had a stand alone movie. They don't get bonus points because they tried to do something that was a terrible idea in the first place.

Villain sucked regardless. He was absolutely no match for Superman, yet he's supposed to be a threat to the whole team? Seriously, wtf
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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I agree that it's difficult to pull off, but dont see how that's relevant.

They shouldn't have even tried a super hero team up movie when only 1 of the heroes has even had a stand alone movie. They don't get bonus points because they tried to do something that was a terrible idea in the first place.

Villain sucked regardless. He was absolutely no match for Superman, yet he's supposed to be a threat to the whole team? Seriously, wtf
Superman needed to stay dead because no one is a match for Superman. It's part of his problem. Man of Steel had the villains who could stand up to him. Marvel handles supremely powered heroes better. How to handle Hulk? Put him in a Thor movie.
 

a c i d.f l y

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Superman needed to stay dead because no one is a match for Superman. It's part of his problem. Man of Steel had the villains who could stand up to him. Marvel handles supremely powered heroes better. How to handle Hulk? Put him in a Thor movie.
Which is why they fucked up not having Darkseid in the cut that we got of Justice League.
 
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LiquidDeath

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It worked in spiderverse specifically because of the multiverse storyline.

Race and gender swapping established heroes is fine in multiverse / what-if storylines. Whats fucking retarded is when they try to pretend Batman was always black, Wonder Woman was always a latinx transwoman, or The Flash was always a fat emo nonbinary persyn.
I disagree. It worked because the story was compelling as hell and it made you care about the characters. It would have been equally compelling regardless of the color of Miles' skin. It is probably my favorite Marvel movie, full stop. It is certainly the most rewatchable.
 

Aldarion

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I disagree. It worked because the story was compelling as hell and it made you care about the characters. It would have been equally compelling regardless of the color of Miles' skin. It is probably my favorite Marvel movie, full stop. It is certainly the most rewatchable.
Great movie, and I agree with the statement that it would have worked just as well regardless of the color of Miles skin.

Doesnt change the fact that it was a multiverse story that literally included the original Peter Parker, acknowledging right up front that it was a what-if alternate world kind of story.

Miles wasnt a token raceswap thing where they made Peter Parker biracial, he was a good character who developed spider powers. His ethnicity was secondary.

So I agree about the character mattering but you can't ignore that they did it in a way that specifically gets past a lot of the usual problems with raceswapping.
 
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LiquidDeath

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Great movie, and I agree with the statement that it would have worked just as well regardless of the color of Miles skin.

Doesnt change the fact that it was a multiverse story that literally included the original Peter Parker, acknowledging right up front that it was a what-if alternate world kind of story.

Miles wasnt a token raceswap thing where they made Peter Parker biracial, he was a good character who developed spider powers. His ethnicity was secondary.

So I agree about the character mattering but you can't ignore that they did it in a way that specifically gets past a lot of the usual problems with raceswapping.
I guess I just feel that the story was so strong that the Miles universe could have been the only universe and it still would have been a successful torch-handing to a new Spiderman. Clearly the multiverse parts of the story would need to change, but Miles the character and backstory is so good that it would have been possible.
 
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Gavinmad

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Miles wasnt a token raceswap thing where they made Peter Parker biracial, he was a good character who developed spider powers. His ethnicity was secondary.
Which is ironic because prior to Spiderverse, Miles was wildly unpopular for being a one dimensional 'hey look im spiderman but brown' character.
 

Chris

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Drawing on real world sterotypes speeds up character development.

You want your hero to be from a working class background and have a family members invovmed in crime and law enforcement, making them black is a good choice.
 

Harshaw

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Which is ironic because prior to Spiderverse, Miles was wildly unpopular for being a one dimensional 'hey look im spiderman but brown' character.
The big thing about Miles was he was just a normal kid. He's basically what Peter would have been without the genius level intellect.