Furor's 14 Days rant & First Look at WoW

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
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You shouldn't group with people who play in recliners late at night. On test we had a cleric who literally fell asleep in an exp group every night. You knew it was going to happen, so you had to try to notice that she was not responding before it wiped the group. To her credit though, she never complained if you zoned out and left her to die. She would just summon her corpse and rez it in the morning.
 

KCXIV

Molten Core Raider
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You shouldn't group with people who play in recliners late at night. On test we had a cleric who literally fell asleep in an exp group every night. You knew it was going to happen, so you had to try to notice that she was not responding before it wiped the group. To her credit though, she never complained if you zoned out and left her to die. She would just summon her corpse and rez it in the morning.
you the Brutul that was in Phantom Raiders?
 
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Vinjin

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Talking about what has caused the MMO space to change so much over the years since the classic era, I'm curious to hear other opinions on what the RMT market has done to influence this space?

Was/Is it good for the game's health or bad? Does it add value or longevity or shorten it? Is there a difference between buying currency or items from the rangrangs versus an in game cash shop?

Personally, I always felt like throwing extra RL money at the game to buy in-game currency or items was akin to cheating. My thought process was that it should be about time invested in the game, not about who can throw the most money at it to "win". Once you do that, you change how the game is played. You also start to care less about any meaningful sense of accomplishment nice you can just keep buying those anyway. Again, just my opinion.

I'm sure others will disagree or have their reasons. But I do believe that the MMO space changed the moment that RMT became mainstream, and not for the better.
 

Kithani

Blackwing Lair Raider
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I think rangrang cash shops are preferable to in-game cash because at least it doesn't incentivize the company to DESIGN the game such that you need to pay to win, although I'd also say EQ's cash shop when I last played (Underfoot) was pretty reasonable and probably a good example of a decently implemented one.
 

Ronaan

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I bought plat in Vanguard because I wanted the biggest boat and biggest house. Like 20$ worth iirc.

Other than that, I'm fine with a cash shop for cosmetic stuff such as mounts/pets. The WoW transmog helmets from a few years ago I'm undecided on.

Cash for gold is nice for people with limited playtime and an abundance of $.
 

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
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you the Brutul that was in Phantom Raiders?

No, I played on Tarew Marr and the test server. I was very unremarkable as a player but I was a mod on TSW for many years.
 

Wynn

Golden Knight of the Realm
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So RMT has always been there. Back before they stopped listing them, people were just selling EQ items and accounts on ebay. After that various early plat/character broker sites popped up to fill the void. From very early in EQ's history its been possible to spend money to get stuff in game, including accounts with lots of hard-to-acquire items. For that reason I can't say that "illicit" RMT has really been a culprit in what's become of the MMO genre, since it's basically always been a factor.

On the current crop of EQ TLPs krono farmers have a big presence in the "mindshare", but I'm honestly not sure if it's just that we know what they're doing/notice them more, or if there really are more krono farmers than in the past. I'd say there are probably roughly the same (percentage-wise) in terms of the "professional" krono farmers, they're just more visible now. I remember ages ago on my original server you'd see weird dudes who were clearly playing 3-4 accounts and would camp stuff a lot, as far back as classic. At the time I didn't really "get it", but through the backward lens and more experience I realize these were dudes making money off of EQ, I just didn't recognize it for what it was at the time.

I do think there are probably more "casual" RMTers in modern EQ TLP because it's gotten so easy to unload stuff since you can just generate in-game krono and quickly sell them for cash. I know a lot of people who I wouldn't classify as "krono farmers" who sort of casually acquire kronos and cash them out periodically on redguides or playerauctions.

Cash shops I think haven't really fucked up WoW or GW2 because in those games it's basically either purely cosmetic stuff, or trading USD for in game currency. But in both games the "power boosts" you can acquire for your character solely through in-game currency are pretty limited. They're there, but they're limited.

EQ I think initially was similar, most of the cash shop stuff was cosmetic/appearance based, but it's slowly gotten worse and worse and now it's bordering on true "pay to win." Some examples would be:

-Store mounts that move very fast (used to be bought mounts gave you a cosmetic appearance, but you couldn't get the faster speeds just by paying $)
-Store mounts / familiars / illusions that give decent in-game buffs, that you have to work pretty hard to get comparable familiars/mounts in game.
-The run speed / levitation / buff potions kind of are like obvious pay to win. Most of them are just analogues of player-granted buffs but they're 4 hours and persist through death. They're a way to not need a druid for SoW or a enc for mana regen and it's hard not to view them as getting an in-game advantage with real life $.
-The whole All-Access / Free membership scheme is basically pay to win. I don't actually mind this one, because I don't buy into the idea that an MMO should be free. But it is kind of obvious what goes on here, free members can't use Prestige gear, can't have more than like 1000 AA, can't use AA Auto-Grant, can't get almost any of the Loyalist Rewards from the Loyalty Token vendor, can only use A5 mercs (which are way worse than J1 Mercs) etc. This one bothers me a little less if you view free membership as a "preview mode" and All Access just giving you "full mode" of the game.
-EXP potions are another big play to win, you basically can't competitively level without running the max store xp potion your entire level grind, so people willing to spend cash are getting a huge advantage.

FWIW I've probably spent over $1,000 on EQ in Daybreak cash, 40-slot bags, EQ expansions to get more 40-slot bags/in-game buffs (EoK teleporter stone, rhino mount etc) in the past few months. This money has given me significant in-game advantages.
 
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Fight

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Dude, $1k on Daybreak cash in the past couple months? Pretty shameful. If you get the opportunity, you should KYS.




JK bro ;)
 
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Wynn

Golden Knight of the Realm
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Actually it looks like it's less than I'd have thought. $100 for 25 slot bags (2 on my main, 1 each on 2 alts), $180 for 2 EoK collector's editions, probably $200 total for group xp pots/other store pots on all my chars, probably $50 on random shit like the $7 lev wand, Ayr Dal gambling crates etc.
 

Aaron

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In a perfect world there would be no need for RMT, but then again, in a perfect world we would not have time to play MMOs since we would all be too busy driving our Ferrari's and banging lingerie models.

But in our imperfect world I do think that the games I know, WoW and Eve seem to do it correctly enough. As long as it is tied to cosmetic items such as mounts, pets, skins and such. I'm also in favour of Plex and WoW tokens, since they help to enlarge the playerbase. Those who have plenty of time to play, but are short on money can keep subscribed while those who have plenty of cash but little time can buy things quicker.

But once WoW starts selling 100k Artifact power for $5 or a full set of top tier raid gear for $100 or whatever is where I would draw the line. That said, I have previously advocated for them selling more bank slots for cash. I'd fucking buy that.
 

Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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In a perfect world we'd have wireless cerebral implants and could multi-task the game mentally.

Whether you could successfully bot 5 full groups while nutting in/on a lingerie model, well that's on you.
 
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BoozeCube

Von Clippowicz
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In a perfect world we'd have wireless cerebral implants and could multi-task the game mentally.

Whether you could successfully bot 5 full groups while nutting in/on a lingerie model, well that's on you.

I mean I am willing to give it a go.
 
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Ah, I remember that Furor rant. But we all know what was happening. SOE was sick of people chewing through content too fast, and the mechanics of the game were becoming so well-known it was becoming trivial if you had a dedicated enough guild. So they decided to push the "We don't give a fuck" button, and create encounter clusterfucks and bottlenecks *on purpose*. PoT wasn't even itemized, if I remember correctly. This was a growing problem, and really marked the point where SOE should have just said (like at the death of Quarm) "that's it, world over, thank you for playing."

What is the feasible lifespan of a slowly building mmo before it just gets ridiculous? I would say 5 years max, 4 more like the norm. Despite Furor's rant, PoP was nicely done, the keying situation was difficult enough to require a pretty high functioning guild. But it was clearly the end of the line and then things just got stupid. SOE borked the rathe council as kind of a fuck you to the content chewers. If it was s sane world, everyone would have realized it really was the end of the line, and there would have been endless capital to build another immersive mmo world. But we do not live in that world, and that is why mmo's are dead.
 

BoozeCube

Von Clippowicz
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Planes of Power for me was fun. I enjoyed the whole thing to the end, yes there were some parts that were a little untuned and shitty, yes there were things that were mobs that were not itemized but overall it was pretty fun.

The problem was what came after. First yo had

LoY and LDoN both felt like mini expansions and were trash. LoY was an insult with Froglok bullshit, then LDoN with their random style shit instances.

GoD was the first real expansion after and while we tried to enjoy it the character level cap didn't increase until OOW which should of been part of GoD. I think the just pure untuned bullshit coupled with FFXI and WoW being released to show you didn't have to choke down shit and ask for seconds is what drove me off forever.
 

Xarpolis

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My favorite expansion was probably Luclin. Mainly because Ssra was such a fun zone. Then so was Vex Thal. I still remember the names they used. But now those names are easy compared to some of the other shit they've created.
 
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And I do not think anyone is to blame. Virtual worlds probably have a predictable viable life-spawn before they become stupid. You would have to plug in variables as to how the world is built. But the "multiple server, contested content" model probably has a calculable lifespan given we are not a bunch of numbed out cyborg sloth-creatures (yet). We are locusts, best as I can tell. But you can estimate the locust chew rate and match that to content creation and reward structure, and come up with a number I am sure.

I guess what I am arguing is, an entymologist would make a superb game designer.
 

KCXIV

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My favorite expansion was probably Luclin. Mainly because Ssra was such a fun zone. Then so was Vex Thal. I still remember the names they used. But now those names are easy compared to some of the other shit they've created.
SSRA was awesome, Vex Thal looked cool, but it fucking sucked. So boring, the AC on the mods were so stupid. The only thing it took was time, i remember my guild on our first clear stayed up til like 5am, becuse the euro's were about to log in and would have cleaned up. We had no choice! haha
 

Fyff

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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What is the feasible lifespan of a slowly building mmo before it just gets ridiculous? I would say 5 years max, 4 more like the norm.

Would it be interesting to have an MMO that, at launch, said they had an "X" year story arc and stuck to it. Like if EQ had classic to Planes of Power mapped out from Day 1 and said up front the servers will last for forever but PoP is the last expansion. Would that model work?
 

a_skeleton_03

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Would it be interesting to have an MMO that, at launch, said they had an "X" year story arc and stuck to it. Like if EQ had classic to Planes of Power mapped out from Day 1 and said up front the servers will last for forever but PoP is the last expansion. Would that model work?
EQ does that now with their Time Locked Progression (TLP) servers.
 

Ronaan

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But once WoW starts selling 100k Artifact power for $5 or a full set of top tier raid gear for $100 or whatever is where I would draw the line. That said, I have previously advocated for them selling more bank slots for cash. I'd fucking buy that.
Set of raid gear is technically possible. Sure you've got the middleman selling you the raid slot, but still.