Is the MMO Market imploding?

tad10 · Aug 30, 2013

Draegan_sl said:
Aren't you one of those people who are looking for EQ original where you just sit in a spot camping one mob? That's not boring?

Not really. You can do a lot of other things while you're camping. Like watch an entire season of South Park.

Is smoking boring? No it's that thing you did in between doing something. That was EQ camping.

zzeris · Aug 30, 2013

Draegan_sl said:
Aren't you one of those people who are looking for EQ original where you just sit in a spot camping one mob? That's not boring?

Busted. Same group that says sitting in that one camp is a good community builder...much better than having a large part of the community actually doing stuff together.

Draegan_sl · Aug 30, 2013

tad10_sl said:
Not really. You can do a lot of other things while you're camping. Like watch an entire season of South Park.

Is smoking boring? No it's that thing you did in between doing something. That was EQ camping.

That's not playing a game though.

Viktorr · Aug 30, 2013

So, I had a thought. In my drunken reading of this thread, I thought to myself...

EDIT: Probably something that wasn't thought out well enough. Carry on.

Loco_sl · Aug 30, 2013

dgrabs_sl said:
Mobile gaming has completely transformed the entire gaming landscape. People want instant satisfaction, or something close to it. This is something you're starting to see transition over to typical MMOs. You can't afford to let a F2P gamer get frustrated and instantly uninstall your game because they didn't immediately know what to do or how they can "win" something. There's a tiny window to hook a new player and keep them coming back for more, and that window is opened by bullshit rewards and the feeling of being good ASAP. That's why you were able to clear a fort with 20+ rebels at level 1. They want to make you feel powerful from the minute you step into the game, despite how illogical that may be.

These aren't games anymore, they're businesses. F2P is going to ruin the genre because the focus isn't going to be about making the game fun to keep the customer subscribed, it's about figuring out every possible way to monetize the game world and user experience to pad the bottom line. The people signing the paychecks of the guys making these games don't want to see a 10% ROI over 10 years, which is what a typical EQ-like MMO is primed to do over time.

For those of us who grew up playing games where danger was real and there were true consequences for your actions, this trend is incredibly hard to swallow.

You completely nailed how I see the industry now. MMO's aren't being made by gamers that want to play the game they're making. Instead, it's investors funding projects looking for the 100-fold ROI that WoW saw and hiring to target the market. The people calling the shots don't want a game for gamers, they want a game that returns money.

The success of the market changed the MMO landscape. The next big game won't be because some studio pumped money in and managed a home run. The next great game will be because some gamers made the game THEY wanted for THEMSELVES, not what they thought the masses wanted. I can't wait to see these companies fail.

Antarius · Aug 30, 2013

Any time a sensational headline is posed in the form of a question, you can answer with no.

Silence_sl · Aug 30, 2013

Antarius_sl said:
Any time a sensational headline is posed in the form of a question, you can answer with no.

Betteridge's Law of Forum Post Titles?

Caliane · Aug 30, 2013

tad10_sl said:
Not really. You can do a lot of other things while you're camping. Like watch an entire season of South Park.

Is smoking boring? No it's that thing you did in between doing something. That was EQ camping.

rofl.
is this a joke?

"I have this great game idea. we make a game about nothing!"
"nothing? how do you play nothing?"
"thats the beauty of it! You don't! while NOT playing our game, the player gets bored and plays other games, or watches TV, reads books, chats on irc/skype/twitter!"
"BRILLIANT!"

etchazz · Aug 30, 2013

Draegan_sl said:
Aren't you one of those people who are looking for EQ original where you just sit in a spot camping one mob? That's not boring?

not it's not, and you've obviously never taken a psych class in your life. what made camping exciting is the same thing that makes casinos exciting. is sitting in front of a slot machine really that exciting? is sitting for hours on end playing 3 card poker or pai gow or black jack fun from a viewer's standpoint? not really. but what makes it exciting is the chance that you'll hit it big, that you'll get on that streak that piles up the chips in front of you. that's the exciting part. gambling stimulates the brain much the same way that drugs do, and that's the hook of camping: that you'll stay for hours on end, exp grinding, and hoping for the big payoff when the rare spawn finally pops and drops the ultra rare loot. that's the part of the original EQ that no one in the industry seems to comprehend anymore. EQ worked just like a casino works: give them just enough to keep them coming back for more, in the hopes that you'll hit the jackpot at some point. that's the exciting part. games today make it so fucking easy to obtain the loot, and the loot is so fucking boring and meaningless that there is absolutely no excitement or incentive to play the game whatsoever.

zzeris · Aug 30, 2013

Caliane_sl said:
rofl.
is this a joke?

"I have this great game idea. we make a game about nothing!"
"nothing? how do you play nothing?"
"thats the beauty of it! You don't! while NOT playing our game, the player gets bored and plays other games, or watches TV, reads books, chats on irc/skype/twitter!"
"BRILLIANT!"

I've already applied to the rights for my game "No Game for you!", with some collaboration from Larry David and a few cameo appearances from Seinfeld. Kickstarter of course. Please stop promoting my IP or my lawyers will have to get nasty...

Quaid · Aug 30, 2013

etchazz_sl said:
not it's not, and you've obviously never taken a psych class in your life. what made camping exciting is the same thing that makes casinos exciting. is sitting in front of a slot machine really that exciting? is sitting for hours on end playing 3 card poker or pai gow or black jack fun from a viewer's standpoint? not really. but what makes it exciting is the chance that you'll hit it big, that you'll get on that streak that piles up the chips in front of you. that's the exciting part. gambling stimulates the brain much the same way that drugs do, and that's the hook of camping: that you'll stay for hours on end, exp grinding, and hoping for the big payoff when the rare spawn finally pops and drops the ultra rare loot. that's the part of the original EQ that no one in the industry seems to comprehend anymore. EQ worked just like a casino works: give them just enough to keep them coming back for more, in the hopes that you'll hit the jackpot at some point. that's the exciting part. games today make it so fucking easy to obtain the loot, and the loot is so fucking boring and meaningless that there is absolutely no excitement or incentive to play the game whatsoever.

That may be the best thing you ever posted. If I could +nets you, I would.

tad10 · Aug 30, 2013

Caliane_sl said:
rofl.
is this a joke?

"I have this great game idea. we make a game about nothing!"
"nothing? how do you play nothing?"
"thats the beauty of it! You don't! while NOT playing our game, the player gets bored and plays other games, or watches TV, reads books, chats on irc/skype/twitter!"
"BRILLIANT!"

Eh. There were other things to do in EQ besides camping that involved a lot more focus. The question was about camping.

Draegan_sl · Aug 30, 2013

etchazz_sl said:
not it's not, and you've obviously never taken a psych class in your life. what made camping exciting is the same thing that makes casinos exciting. is sitting in front of a slot machine really that exciting? is sitting for hours on end playing 3 card poker or pai gow or black jack fun from a viewer's standpoint? not really. but what makes it exciting is the chance that you'll hit it big, that you'll get on that streak that piles up the chips in front of you. that's the exciting part. gambling stimulates the brain much the same way that drugs do, and that's the hook of camping: that you'll stay for hours on end, exp grinding, and hoping for the big payoff when the rare spawn finally pops and drops the ultra rare loot. that's the part of the original EQ that no one in the industry seems to comprehend anymore. EQ worked just like a casino works: give them just enough to keep them coming back for more, in the hopes that you'll hit the jackpot at some point. that's the exciting part. games today make it so fucking easy to obtain the loot, and the loot is so fucking boring and meaningless that there is absolutely no excitement or incentive to play the game whatsoever.

You missed one key point, in a casino I don't have to wait 10 minutes in between the pulls of a lever on a slot machine. It's also why people play 10 games of poker at once on their PC so they are constantly doing something.

I like the casino thing. The whole ARPG genre was built upon it. Diablo with good loot is awesome.

Rod-138 · Aug 30, 2013

Time is also one of the levers, though. Your time is a resource and you can roll the dice on using your time to camp stuff. Like - it may take me 14 hours to get j boots, but over time that may save me more than that and improve my gaming experience.

Without time being used up then the choice between leveling, screwing off(arena stuff), camping items, or working the market - without time those choices lose value in terms of successful progression.

You were rewarded in EQ1 for using time to obtain game changing items, and time was the barrier to entry that separated the men from the boys. Without that barrier, there is no obviously viable way to create separation between players, which is what everyone wants I would argue

tad10 · Aug 30, 2013

Rod-138_sl said:
Time is also one of the levers, though. Your time is a resource and you can roll the dice on using your time to camp stuff. Like - it may take me 14 hours to get j boots, but over time that may save me more than that and improve my gaming experience.

Without time being used up then the choice between leveling, screwing off(arena stuff), camping items, or working the market - without time those choices lose value in terms of successful progression.

You were rewarded in EQ1 for using time to obtain game changing items, and time was the barrier to entry that separated the men from the boys. Without that barrier, there is no obviously viable way to create separation between players, which is what everyone wants I would argue

This btw was the root of my long running battle with Zehn on fohguild. Zehn refused (refuses?) to accept that time should be any kind of metric (or to be more honest to his POV time should not be a substitute for skill). Whereas I completely agree with this post: time is an MMO resource. Who cares if it also substitutes for skill in many places in MMO. Developers can't generate enough content in any MMO where time is not treated as a resource.

Adebisi · Aug 30, 2013

etchazz_sl said:
not it's not, and you've obviously never taken a psych class in your life. what made camping exciting is the same thing that makes casinos exciting. is sitting in front of a slot machine really that exciting? is sitting for hours on end playing 3 card poker or pai gow or black jack fun from a viewer's standpoint? not really. but what makes it exciting is the chance that you'll hit it big, that you'll get on that streak that piles up the chips in front of you. that's the exciting part. gambling stimulates the brain much the same way that drugs do, and that's the hook of camping: that you'll stay for hours on end, exp grinding, and hoping for the big payoff when the rare spawn finally pops and drops the ultra rare loot. that's the part of the original EQ that no one in the industry seems to comprehend anymore. EQ worked just like a casino works: give them just enough to keep them coming back for more, in the hopes that you'll hit the jackpot at some point. that's the exciting part. games today make it so fucking easy to obtain the loot, and the loot is so fucking boring and meaningless that there is absolutely no excitement or incentive to play the game whatsoever.

Aye!

I'd compare it to fishing. What fun would fishing be if you caught one on every cast?

Quaid · Aug 30, 2013

Adebisi_sl said:
Aye!

I'd compare it to fishing. What fun would fishing be if you caught one on every cast?

This fun:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cUusX1J...%3DcUusX1Js6R0

Rhuobhe · Aug 30, 2013

camping wasn't just sitting waiting for a mob to spawn. most of the time it was very challenging. it was about getting the right people with the necessary skill, talents and dedication to survive the camp.

Draegan_sl · Aug 30, 2013

Rod-138_sl said:
Time is also one of the levers, though. Your time is a resource and you can roll the dice on using your time to camp stuff. Like - it may take me 14 hours to get j boots, but over time that may save me more than that and improve my gaming experience.

Without time being used up then the choice between leveling, screwing off(arena stuff), camping items, or working the market - without time those choices lose value in terms of successful progression.

You were rewarded in EQ1 for using time to obtain game changing items, and time was the barrier to entry that separated the men from the boys. Without that barrier, there is no obviously viable way to create separation between players, which is what everyone wants I would argue

What the fuck?

EmiliaEQ_sl · Aug 30, 2013

etchazz_sl said:
what made camping exciting is the same thing that makes casinos exciting

Honestly as much as i liked EQ, i do find the camping concept a bit too boring, i mean having to run between Bar/Armory/iForgot in Sebilis wasnt bad.
You could just keep the 3 rooms cleaned to "get a chances for the drops" or pull everything in sight and run around like mad to "maximise loot/hour".
After the 3 rooms were cleared you could relax a bit, and as long as you cleared "fast enough" there was no rush to do more.
Grinding AA in "Velk top spiders" sucked, i prefer the "3 room sebilis camping"...

Compare that to Strathom "speed rush" where the entire point was to get to the boss ASAP to be able to reset the instance... now that's just bad gameplay.

There is also the downtime issue, looking at a book was retarded (VanillaEQ) just as much as zero downtime is (no time to socialize, have to farm).
The difference between LDoN to Sebilis was enormous (at least for me), having a monk/sk/bard pull meant the other 5 could chat.
Running around like mad to maximize LDoN cycles was just awful.

So between the casino addiction, the moderate downtime/pull, the slowish leveling, somewhere somehow a decent balance was reached.
I miss that.

Is the MMO Market imploding?

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