Marriage and the Power of Divorce

iannis

iannis

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The question is if it would work. There are a lot of personality types from either rebellious to headstrong to simply niave that you'd encourage exactly the outcome you're trying to prevent with an approach like that. It's less about being their pal and more about encouraging success.

And when you're a 17-18 year old male... you're thinking with your dick. You just are. Even if you're intelligent and forward minded you're still thinking with your dick.

I think it should be part of the conversation though. It took me a very long time to wrap my head around money. I honestly didn't get it till like my late 20's. I'm not a stupid guy... I just had a few odd and impractical ideas.

One of the few times you can unironically use the term "white privilege". They did shelter me perhaps a bit too much from some things. But it's not like I blame 'em.
 
Khane

Khane

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So you're argument is "let my kid rule the roost"? Teenagers can be headstrong, well... anybody can be headstrong, but make it very clear the consequences of that choice. Don't encourage it...

If you try to guide them down a good path and they choose to ignore you that's their own choice. You can't force an 18 year old to bend to your will, but you sure as hell don't have to bend to theirs. One of the biggest reasons college costs have gotten so out of hand is because parents send their kids off to college without paying any thought to what that entails. It's just "my kid is going to college" and that's it. I held a lot of animosity towards my parents for several years after I realized the gravity of living with $98k worth of debt because they made no effort to educate me or themselves about the costs of higher education. They just wanted me to go to college because they didn't, and it didn't matter why I was there or what I was pursuing.

It ended up turning out okay but there was a lot of luck involved with that. I went to school for computer science just because I liked playing video games. $98k is an awful high price to pay for your parents just to be proud that you were a college graduate or because they didn't parent you about the consequences of following a girl.
 
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iannis

iannis

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No, the argument is that you want to encourage success, and the strategy to do that will depend on their personality. At 17-18 they have to make significant decisions themselves. And they have to be allowed to. They also have to be allowed to bear some of the financial responsibility of those decisions.

"Let them rule the roost" is a gross oversimplification.

Neither of us have kids but we both know that when your kid is in trouble, no matter how old they are, you're going to do what you can to help them. Unless you really are enough of a hardass to cut them off entirely what you're going to find yourself doing is some form of negotiation.

If either of us had a son that was about to chase pussy off a cliff, we'd both explain that the cliff exists. And if, after we'd done our best at persusaion up to and including outright forbidding and he STILL chased pussy off the cliff. Well what now? Is the idea to tell him to "I told you so and go fuck yourself"?

Some men actually do that. Maybe it's not the worst thing. I gotta think there's a better way. You don't want to crush them with their own idiocy. They'll do a plenty good job of that on their own!

I forbid it would actually work with some people. If that's the theoretical kid we've got, then gods sake, do THAT. It's rare though.
 
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Tarrant

Tarrant

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My argument is I want to set my child up for success but sometimes they need to learn their own life lessons, especially once they reach adulthood. I can tell them what I'd do in their place all I want but at the end of the day they are men/women that need to make their decisions themselves and go from there. I'm there (once they hit that age) to guide them. Not live their lives for them and make their decisions for them.
 
Khane

Khane

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iannis said:
No, the argument is that you want to encourage success, and the strategy to do that will depend on their personality. At 17-18 they have to make significant decisions themselves. And they have to be allowed to. They also have to be allowed to bear some of the financial responsibility of those decisions.

"Let them rule the roost" is a gross oversimplification.

Neither of us have kids but we both know that when your kid is in trouble, no matter how old they are, you're going to do what you can to help them. Unless you really are enough of a hardass to cut them off entirely what you're going to find yourself doing is some form of negotiation.

If either of us had a son that was about to chase pussy off a cliff, we'd both explain that the cliff exists. And if, after we'd done our best at persusaion up to and including outright forbidding and he STILL chased pussy off the cliff. Well what now? Is the idea to tell him to "I told you so and go fuck yourself"?

Some men actually do that. Maybe it's not the worst thing. I gotta think there's a better way. You don't want to crush them with their own idiocy. They'll do a plenty good job of that on their own!

I forbid it would actually work with some people. If that's the theoretical kid we've got, then gods sake, do THAT. It's rare though.
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Your first paragraph was pretty much exactly what I said. So I guess we agree?

As for the rest I don't think it's a fair statement to act like what I was saying was to give up on your kid if they don't follow your advice. I'm just saying to make sure you impress upon them the gravity of their choice and that you absolutely do not condone or support it. I'm not telling you to disavow them, that would be absurd.
 
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Khane

Khane

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Tarrant said:
My argument is I want to set my child up for success but sometimes they need to learn their own life lessons, especially once they reach adulthood. I can tell them what I'd do in their place all I want but at the end of the day they are men/women that need to make their decisions themselves and go from there. I'm there (once they hit that age) to guide them. Not live their lives for them and make their decisions for them.
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Well, I guess we're saying the same thing in different ways then. Though your original post made it sound like you would elect to encourage them if it meant avoiding an argument.
 
Tarrant

Tarrant

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Khane said:
Well, I guess we're saying the same thing in different ways then. Though your original post made it sound like you would elect to encourage them if it meant avoiding an argument.
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Not at all. Just that at that age telling them what to do as opposed to what they may want to consider isn't really an option and adds bad juju to an already stressful time for those involved.
 
A

a_skeleton_03

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Tarrant said:
Eh, sending your kid off to college is hard enough without adding anger, fighting and resentment to it.
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Telling them you won’t pay for a mistake doesn’t have to be about resentment.

My kids are both graduating this year and we told them that we have a little money set aside for college. When they have a plan let us know and we will work with them on it. We have every right to tell them we won’t support this or that degreee or that college or if their grades are doing bad etc etc.

They knew that was the case two years ago. Help with college money is purely a gift not an obligation.
 
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a_skeleton_03

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I have told my kids about a ton of things that I don’t support also.

If you want to tattoo up your body go for it, here is how you pick a good artist, I won’t drive you to it or pay for it.

Want to smoke pot in a state that is legal? Feel free, I won’t pay for college while you do so you might want to wait until 22 or don’t let me hear about it.

Things like that. I always tell them why it’s not an optimal choice and why I won’t help with it or pay for it. Then I make it clear that if they choose those things I won’t judge them but that they take away from money and resources that could be used elsewhere so it’s not on me to facilitate it.

You can have a stance opposite your wife and kids without it turning into you being a monster.
 
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Tarrant

Tarrant

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Khane said:
Nonsense. You are their parent.
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Correct. But at 18 and moving out they’re adults. You can guide but not demand. That’s silly to think otherwise. They are adults. At 18 my parents forbid me to move to MN. I did so and spent 20 years there. We didn’t talk for the first two.

I was an adult. I’ll live how I want. Our kids aren’t any different. Unless again they have the understanding that the parents are paying for college and they also have a say in that.

You can’t demand your children who are adults do anything. Or rather you can, and just have them still do what they want.
 
TrollfaceDeux

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a_skeleton_03 said:
I have told my kids about a ton of things that I don’t support also.

If you want to tattoo up your body go for it, here is how you pick a good artist, I won’t drive you to it or pay for it.

Want to smoke pot in a state that is legal? Feel free, I won’t pay for college while you do so you might want to wait until 22 or don’t let me hear about it.

Things like that. I always tell them why it’s not an optimal choice and why I won’t help with it or pay for it. Then I make it clear that if they choose those things I won’t judge them but that they take away from money and resources that could be used elsewhere so it’s not on me to facilitate it.

You can have a stance opposite your wife and kids without it turning into you being a monster.
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You go on Reddit and these "victims" always cry their parents are so controlling because they won't support their life choice that they don't agree with. Redditors would chim in and cry about the the OP is the victim and parents are the devil for getting something in return for their investment. I dunno... Respect?

It's hilarious.... It's not their money.... I don't know why they feel entitled to it.
 
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a_skeleton_03

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Tarrant said:
If thats a deal you have going into it then sure, my presumption was that this wasn't the case as if it was it wouldn't have been a convo in the first place.
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Even if I sprung it on them I wouldn’t feel bad.

My daughter started going down the piercing path recently. Told her as she is picking out piercings and about to schedule it that she can do that stuff after she is 18. I don’t want her making body decisions that she might hate in a couple months.

She didn’t love the response but had no choice. Now only 3 months later she says she is probably happy with just the two in her ears.

Be assertive but not a dick and don’t be afraid to parent.
 
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Tarrant

Tarrant

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a_skeleton_03 said:
I have told my kids about a ton of things that I don’t support also.

If you want to tattoo up your body go for it, here is how you pick a good artist, I won’t drive you to it or pay for it.

Want to smoke pot in a state that is legal? Feel free, I won’t pay for college while you do so you might want to wait until 22 or don’t let me hear about it.

Things like that. I always tell them why it’s not an optimal choice and why I won’t help with it or pay for it. Then I make it clear that if they choose those things I won’t judge them but that they take away from money and resources that could be used elsewhere so it’s not on me to facilitate it.

You can have a stance opposite your wife and kids without it turning into you being a monster.
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I don’t disagree with any of that.
 
Alex

Alex

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College is when you're supposed to get the majority of your pot smoking out of your system though.
 
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Tarrant

Tarrant

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a_skeleton_03 said:
Even if I sprung it on them I wouldn’t feel bad.

My daughter started going down the piercing path recently. Told her as she is picking out piercings and about to schedule it that she can do that stuff after she is 18. I don’t want her making body decisions that she might hate in a couple months.

She didn’t love the response but had no choice. Now only 3 months later she says she is probably happy with just the two in her ears.

Be assertive but not a dick and don’t be afraid to parent.
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Again, after she’s 18. So again I don’t disagree with you.
 
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a_skeleton_03

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Tarrant said:
Correct. But at 18 and moving out they’re adults. You can guide but not demand. That’s silly to think otherwise. They are adults. At 18 my parents forbid me to move to MN. I did so and spent 20 years there. We didn’t talk for the first two.

I was an adult. I’ll live how I want. Our kids aren’t any different. Unless again they have the understanding that the parents are paying for college and they also have a say in that.

You can’t demand your children who are adults do anything. Or rather you can, and just have them still do what they want.
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And when they are adults they have no right to expect you to pay for a mistake .....

You see that’s the crux of this specific instance right?

Hey kid I am your parent, I will not pay for college at this specific one just so you can hang out with this girl. If you want to go to this college feel free, just I’m not paying. Give it a couple months and get back to me. We got time little buddy.
 
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