Marriage and the Power of Divorce

chaos

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I feel like all the people advocating for divorce are unfamiliar with how utterly unfair family courts are towards men and how badly you're going to get wrecked regardless of incomes and proof of infidelity.

And to play devil's advocate since the default response around here is to side with the dude, yeah her stepping out on you feels like a kick in the dick but it's a kick in the dick you brought upon yourself when you checked out of the relationship for so long. You are not a saint here regardless of how angry you are at her.
What is his alternative though? She is in love with and sleeping with another dude, kids will figure this out if they haven't already. He is miserable. Left alone I imagine this situation only gets much worse.
 
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Phazael

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This is manipulation bro. Worst case she is stalling you and getting her shit in order before you do. If you've never had any run-ins with the law, never went to rehab or anything on paper really it just becomes he says she says. Just own up to that part and be like yeah I had a rough time leaving the army. Six months ago I realized it was a problem for me and I stopped drinking cold turkey. Haven't touched it since and probably won't again.

If you were employed this entire time and making money there isn't much they can do to you about it I think. Just general low point in life or whatever.

Just move on and work more on self-improvement.
This. It is an Orangutan maneuver, which it sounds like she had practice with before you came into the picture. Separating finances is basically the moment she made up her mind to "trade up" and odds are she is committed to that direction and anything she says is just a distraction to give her an edge. If there is no legal trail of the boozing or drugs, keep that shit to yourself. Lawyer up quietly and prepare for a fight, because she has been already for years by the sound of it. And I think its a safe bet she has been railing that dude for a while, but what she counts as the first railing is the one where in her mind she decided this dude is her new man. Every action since that moment from her has likely been about securely moving her relationship and life over to this other guy and stringing you along until she has everything she wants.

The sooner you come to grips with this and move on, the better it will be for you and your kids. If you hit the gym and cut out the hard booze and drugs, you won't have any trouble finding someone better. You are, unfortunately, stuck in that first pussy I ever had mindset as a grown man and it is screwing with your ability to reason this through.

Good luck. Nothing about this is going to be fun, but with kids in play you have to tough this out.
 
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Onoes

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Man, this brings back my shit dude.

First off, what everyone is saying about moving out is true, DO NOT leave your house. If things get bad, the courts will view it as you abandoning your kids, number 1 goal is to keep being a good father and showing that you are trying your best to maintain structure. If you move out and get a job 2 hours away... you are fucked. Honestly, I would say the whole job 2 hours away thing is likely a pipe dream if you want the next 16 years of your life with the kids to function.

I'm going to get blasted for this in here, the same as everyone blasted me for it when I did it myself, but I'm still going to give you my advice. She is done with the marriage, she feels bad, she knows and loves you on some level, but she's checked out and just doesn't want to be the bad guy. She doesn't want to destroy you and wreck everything, and yeah, she knows a divorce will make her life harder, so that's probably in her head somewhere as well. You want to believe it can be fixed and everything can go back to being like it was at the start or something, that its worth saving, but it isn't and you aren't helping by delaying it. It's going to happen at some point.

Here's where my advice comes in, is it possible for you two to put the kids to bed, sit down in your room and go "Hey, we need to talk. We're both trying to make this work, neither of us wants this to be over, but do we really want to keep living like this? You having to feel terrible because you aren't happy, and me worrying I'm not enough or that I can't trust you? Wouldn't it be better if we just stepped back, while we are as rational as we are now, and having a real talk about how we can split as amicably as possible while not trying to hurt each other or cause problems for the kids or anything. I don't want to have the relationship you and your Ex have, we love each other but we just didn't make it, we tried but it isn't working, I'd like to talk about us finding a way to split up and continue being respectful and friendly with each other."

Something like that. Now, you know your wife, if that in any way shape or form seems like a non starter, DO NOT DO IT and go talk to a lawyer like everyone else is saying. For me, its been the best thing I ever did. We can go back to 40 pages of these guys talking about how fucked I'm going to get, and none of that happened. I was on a zoom call last night with my Ex-wife because she bought a new car and wanted to show me and my wife, she's excited and we are all friends. I'm not saying we haven't had issues or disagreements, and I do not think we would be speaking if it wasn't for the kids (would have just been easier to split totally of course). I'm sure it helped that both my Ex and I were products of rough divorces, and we did not want to expose our kids to that. I get that my situation is the 1%, we've gone on vacation with the kids and invited my Ex and her guy, and had a great time. We have a 50/50 schedule for the kids that works for both of us, and both sets of parents are typically totally cool with changing days or whatever. Everything is so EASY. I was married to her for 11 years, very similar to your story (minus the booze and drugs), and I really feel like you guys sound like you are in the same place we were.

I'm just saying, if its an option to work out together, if she is cool about it, it can work out MUCH better for everyone. Especially if you want to stay in your step daughters life, the only way that probably happens is if you can both be grown ups and team players.

I get that this will not work for most people, I get that this could be bad advice. Only he is going to know the situation enough to make that call.

Side note - if that does work out, don't just fuck yourself to appease her. You mentioned her keeping the house and shit... yeah maybe, but figure stuff out. Maybe you guys sell it and split the profits, maybe you keep the house but she gets something else. In my case, I made the proposal that I keep the house, but I also keep all the debt we had accrued (Around $25,000). I told her that she keeps her car that was paid off, and she can have literally anything from the house, furniture, appliances, whatever. She starts her new life debt free and with everything she needs to move into a new place. She agreed to that. She also insisted that she not get child support, but we followed what the laws in AZ said, and she was entitled to it. In your case it will be the other way, she will have to pay you child support (I'm guessing $350ish a month based on the incomes you provided and 50/50 split) and you don't have to just shoot that down because you are wanting to get away. If you can't handle stepping back and calmly going over this stuff, yeah, you are going to have to get help.
 
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moonarchia

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Ignore Onoes, and go talk to a lawyer. You can have the talk about the other stuff after you have your shit covered legally. You absolutely want tht legal stuff covered before anything else happens or you are almost certain to get boned.
 
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SeanDoe1z1

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I think its understandable but that doesnt mean it wasnt also a complete violation of their relationship.

Did she ever sit down and talk with you about yourproblems SeanDoe1z1 SeanDoe1z1 ? She ever try and get you to work on your drinking problem? Thats what a good partner would have done, not gone straight to cheating.

Yes I am sure there were plenty of times, but I also felt pretty damn alone in all of it too. The neglect really started to hit us both where we stopped caring about each other (nothing malicious, just roommates). It definitely felt like it went straight to cheating especially the last couple of years before the blind side we felt like we were on the "positive" route.

I'm not trying to paint bad guy vs good guy. Just trying to honestly figure out what the hell to do next. I will stay in the house. I will be the best dad/father/husband I can be and just move from there. Onoes Onoes everything does seem the most close analogue to what I can ascribe to my real life, we are both tired of everything but the hurtful behavior is only coming from one person right now and I just want it to stop.
 

Onoes

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Yup, the way I described my relationship was "We are basically roomates." for like 2 years. Then my wife started going out all the time, hitting the gym, having a lot more friends I didn't know or see. It went from us being roomates, to me basically being a stay at home babysitter. We went to marriage counseling and that helped... for a few months. We would have long talks and heart to hearts and that would help... for a few weeks. But ultimately she would start fucking up again, over and over, because she wanted out, even if she didn't want to admit she wanted out.
 

SeanDoe1z1

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While everything is sucking, sobriety is there for a reason. Real life has pain and running away from it won't help me. A lot of this information has really helped, any perspective is one more filler. I think I need to be honest with her and stop trying to yo-yo who wants to be with whom.


I have my faults, but really I know deep down I am a good catch. I applied my compulsive behavior to something extremely negative trying to run away from the problems in my life. Now its time to basically pay up. Why hold on to something for "the kids" when the second they're gone you have the exact same relationship?

Seems paradoxical and not correct. Alcohol was never the underlying problem, it was a GIANT catalyst and I don't want to dismiss that behavior. It was embarrassing. However, it was an easy scapegoat and deep down we have had some fundamental issues from the beginning.
 

Phazael

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Onoes has his heart in the right place, but do NOT tip your hand at all until you lawyer up. She has already been planning her exit and you are basically just handing her your ass if you do. She is your first, well everything, and that can fuck up your perspective. Don't let it and keep your head level and focused on the rough task ahead. All your mental energy should be focused on protecting your kids, protecting yourself, and not giving her lawyer any ammunition. In that order. There will be plenty of time for introspection and beating yourself up later, once you square things away. And staying off the booze is probably a good idea until this all gets resolved, for many reasons.

But above all, LAWYER UP NOW and listen to them. Onoes got incredibly lucky not to get royally screwed (and he still kind of was in minor ways) in his divorce. He was trying to save money and did not learn from an incident where he did not lawyer up not too long before that. He is a good guy who gives bad advice on protecting yourself because he is insanely lucky and manages to dodge bullets like Neo in the Matrix. Like as in he stuck his dick in the crazy a half dozen times in a year and walked away unscathed, some of those while his divorce was still being sorted out. The emotional aspect he is spot on, though. And he let his ex wife walk all over him, so going back and reading what he went through would probably help you out a lot. I think he caught her blowing a cop in his car at some point, if memory serves.
 
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Phazael

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Didn't your ex fuck with your custody situation? Plus she can still hose you in court if all you guys did was a handshake agreement, years after the fact. You are not out of the woods yet, but if she is settled down with another dude and its going to last then I guess you lucked out (again).
 

SeanDoe1z1

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The only difference in "this time" is shes being candidly honest on how everything went down, how it started, when it started, and how its going to stop. Let me go ahead and insert all the eye rolls from everyone because it DOES feel like a joke. It sucks to admit it feels real. It sucks to look her in the eyes and know she probably "means" it this time. It fucking blows I want to believe her. I would be a full blown idiot to not fully expect it to happen again, I notice everything and its a stupid shitty trait probably carried over by years of military OCD. Quite honestly, if it does or does not happen again is irrelevant.

A lot of the self-pity vomit here is more of an internal larp as the wound was still fresh, but no where as near biting as the last time (The only thing that fucks me up about it, is we are in a "good" place while this was still going down which is probably for the better and removes any justification BS I try to apply). That alone tells me I just don't give a fuck about it/her/the situation anymore. I was pretty honest and said at this point I don't want to be with her and its coming full circle of "now I understand finally I need to change!". Its ironic and honestly what I expected when I started this process 6 months ago. She is going to go to counseling/therapy. Sure whatever. I don't really care. I will retain a lawyer and keep it to myself. She is a woman that wants the best of both worlds and is rapidly approaching reality.

I am an idiot. But at least I have been around custodial agreements my entire married life and understand the importance of not trying to handshake a deal where it matters. When shit hits the fan, the paper is the only thing that matters. I know all too well about finding the right sub section of the agreement and sending a snapshot and telling the other party to get fucked. Its all too real and both my wife and I KNOW she holds the power here. I believe one of the phrases in our talks last night was "look, I don't want you to get screwed if you go down this route..."

The only bonus I have for me is she is maxed out on her earning capacity right now and I'm in an underpaid job for the benefits/security. Most agreements will just take the last W2 or last 3 year W2 average and calculate that way. 50/50 she would actually owe me, but I would probably put it on paper and handshake it away as an olive branch and it being such a little amount I don't care. Any less than 50/50 days my part I am paying (and I don't care paying CS and being a non POS father regardless of my financial status or how she spends it because she isn't a cheapskate with our kids). Most agreements have a clause to revisit financial compensation after a major change brought upon by either party. I can see myself landing a job with higher pay within the year and her not bothering with dropping 3-5K to "go after" more money because shes proven to be to not be a scornful POS with the other dad of 10 years.

I just married a dud, guys. I married for looks and her ambition and when her looks start to fade (in her eyes), her ambition took over and fucked her way into a new job making well above her education level. Her boyfriend was never really a coworker. He was a colleague and opened up an entire market for her that was dead. In my opinion, she obviously loved/loves this physician, but I have zero doubts this relationship would have "blossomed" without him having the ability to advance her career. It is not like I don't understand the thought process. Bang a doctor on the side, get a 100k job, ditch the loser husband. On paper it makes sense, in reality she comes out with a major loss by forgetting who she actually married. One of the funniest quotes out of all of this shit : "I just wanted to punch you in the face...you were able to turn everything off so easily and step up so fast. I am so mad I just want to punch you in the face. Why couldn't you do it before!" Insert confused blackmanface

A valuable lesson to be learned. I have two great kids from it. A future shitlord in training and the love of my life daughter who just takes on the entire world. They are the reason I am still here. My wife and I don't share weekends. Its not like I am "babysitting" while she goes and fucks this guy. Like I mentioned earlier, its this weird version of purgatory where deep down it probably is the best decision to exist gracefully, but it isn't like mommy and daddy are running around the house screaming at each other. She does her shit, I do mine. The more I put 100 % into myself / kids she tries to pull me back in.




And I'm a stupid fucking creature of habit. My muscle definition has been coming in like a champ and I have been mirin' myself way too hard lately acting like a 20-something idiot fresh on the market and I ended up fucking her deep into the couch last night forcing her to look for the cure to covoid burying her face all the way to Wuhan China. Was it a hate fuck? A pity fuck? A simple release? I don't know, but I treat her like the drug she is and dipped my fucking ink again. My brother had the best advice. Stop. Fucking. Her. I started it, its not like she is a succubus. I did it.

I simply cannot cheat on her. I've spent 18 months apart from her even then when I have all the opportunity and desperation (18 months is a long time guys...) in the world I still couldn't even come close to that. I remember one 8/10 coworker I had to pull aside and have a talk with because she was getting borderline "I'm going to get that dick and you can't stop me" challenge and basically tell her to fuck off because it wasn't going to happen and I quite literally have to document this bullshit. I can't hold her to the same moralistic integrity and turn around and do the same shit and sleep at night even if there is no reciprocation. I honestly don't think its about her, but not having a cloud over my head to the actual people I care about, my kids.



I'm basically bagholding my relationship hoping her market value changes after a 20:1 reverse stock split and wondering where all my money went. A lesson I know the answer to, yet I painfully can't learn from.





it also doesn't help covoid with two working parents + two school age children is severely fucking everything up. I can work from home, but my job suffers, so I go in about 85 % of the time because I want to start elevating that part of my life. I put my son in an online school to hedge the bets against a total 100 % online option from our school district being shitty if it shutdown is widespread again, but we left our oldest in public because she can be the latchkey kid if needed and the program last year was way better suited for older kids. So we both work and have to come home and each spend 2-3 hours between each kid on homework / school, rinse repeat. The weekends I try to do at least one outdoor thing with everyone while I still do whatever projects to keep me sane. I have to get up at 5AM to hit the gym or "I'm being annoying taking up all my time for myself". Basically we have the most trouble when we are home alone together and actually share days off, but are completely fine when a vacation or mini-stay elsewhere. We just recently starting having date nights again but now it feels almost unwarranted with the latest revelation.


I am a go-go-go person now, and she is damn pretty lazy when home. Like I said before, alcohol was a major catalysts in a lot of bad decisions, but there have always been some deeper problems afoot.
 
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Khane

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The situation sucks but one thing she's right about is you not bettering yourself until threatened with a divorce. I think if the roles were reversed you'd probably feel the same way.

Good for you for turning your life around and manning up, keep it up and if there is a silver lining in all of this it's that it is turning you into a better man and father and you can at least take that away from all this. And your kids will grow to understand and appreciate that as well
 
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SeanDoe1z1

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Right, at least the catalyst for doing the right thing and choosing to be sober was never about her affair. I poured out my last drink 3 weeks before I found the "Shock and awe" moment. Couldn't tell you exactly what it was that led to that decision, but I could diatribe on it for awhile. TLDR - I thought it would be automatic with kids (it wasn't) and my overbearing internal shame mechanism finally kicked in after being pushed enough.

I actually relapsed when I found out the truth. I found out on a Thursday, flew out friday. I flew out of state to stay with a friend, he offered me a rent free place for 6 months if I wanted to relocate to a new job down there. I helped him out of his last marriage when his wife was just quite literally sleeping with anyone that makes eye contact with her (Funny story, this was another woman I could have easily slept with when she was alone in my place while he was out running, I tried to warn him she was definitely testing the waters with me and it fell on deaf ears. Hes in a much better position now thank god. Fuck these type of women). The hurt was bad enough I just wanted to get wasted and go to sleep. Had a real conversation with him about how that didn't solve any problems when you wake up and it just reaffirmed my choice to be sober. Honestly a great friend and that offer still stands to this day. His brother recently died of a fentanyl OD and I made a good donation to his sons college fund. Last thing I could do. Wife knows about this, I don't hide anything from her.

The difference is, the roles are reversed.

I was doing the relationship ender and she had enough but wanted to "work on it" which was a farce to sit on the fence and enjoy having both a husband/father and a boyfriend.

Now she is doing the relationship ender and I've had enough and I am doing nothing other than what a loving partner / father should do besides my internal vents here or to friends/family. If its over, its over and time to move on -- but the game needs to reach a conclusion fairly quick.

I mean is she entitled to have an affair NOW because I was addicted to the bottle? I gave her 3 chances and now its "real" that she wants to make it work with me. My fallback strategy I keep relying on is 1) focus on me 2) focus on kids. I can't go wrong in that scenario. I will have a lawyer, I will maintain everything going forward...but this idea that she gets to continue to reciprocate doing something shitty to me isn't holding up very well.


Like I said, if she can continue this while everything is good. We're holding hands, we're loving eachother, the whole 10 yards, what the fuck should I expect in the future? I mean FFS she is already talking about our next vacation and I feel like I'm sitting here in crazy town. I literally told her last night I don't want to be with this version of her. A loser cop out of leaving the door open. I get it but fuck me, I keep doing it because of my kids.


I understand shitty behavior begets shitty behavior, but at what point does her train get to stop? After the next time I find a receipt to an AirBnB? A text? An innocuous lie? I admit my faults. I apologize. I better myself, but for fucks sake. Don't take answers from the past and apply it to the here and now as an excuse.

and I do appreciate this medium for how much I shitpost around on FOH. Never thought a forum would be beneficial but here I am.
 
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chaos

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"I dont want to be with this version of you" isnt a clear and direct statement. It sounds more like asking her to change and salvage the relationship. If that's what you want, I can understand it, but I don't think it really is what you want.
 
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SeanDoe1z1

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That is a fair statement. I want a reality that most likely cannot exist and need to figure out where this is going. I will be taking a bit of a hiatus from here while I focus on September.
 
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Onoes

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Didn't your ex fuck with your custody situation? Plus she can still hose you in court if all you guys did was a handshake agreement, years after the fact. You are not out of the woods yet, but if she is settled down with another dude and its going to last then I guess you lucked out (again).

There was a scare about 3 years after the divorce when my Ex went to Phoenix for a weekend to stay with one of her high school best friends. Her friend is a lawyer, and they stayed up late drinking wine, all the while her friend is telling her I'm probably fucking her financially and I must have manipulated her to get the house and stuff. Her friend basically told her she needed to gather everything up and bring it to her, and she would go to court and get her all that she deserved.

When she got back from her trip she brought it up to me, so I started showing her all the paperwork and explaining in detail how everything was calculated. When we were doing that we saw a clause that child support could be redone any time income had changed by 8% or more. At my job I typically get a 5-8% raise every year, she's lucky to get 1%. So I just said "unless either of our job situations change, why don't we just recalculate child support every two years then, and I'll even go back to a year ago and fo whatever backpay there is." And she was super fine with that.

The whole thing did make me super nervous though, and I did go talk to a lawyer who said that all sounded fine. The only thing he would reccomend was drafting a letter that said "I was paid X amount for child support for the month of X by Onoes as agreed upon and determined by the AZ child support calculator." And have her sign it.

So yeah, even on the best of terms, shit can go south. I just dodge bullets like Neo. Like a dumb, lucky, Neo.
 
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Onoes

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Ohhh and her blowing a MARRIED on duty cop was after the divorce. Which really stung considering we were married for 11 years and she never blew me that entire time. Fucking bullshit.

My poor current wife is having to make up those years, and boy is her jaw tired, lol.
 
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Izo

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I mean, unless you got some Camerous Camerous dick.
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Rubberband mushroom nightmare, no bueno.
 
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