Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO
- Thread starter Flobee
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Lodi
Blackwing Lair Raider
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It's typically not the people in the fringe of a genre that are the "consuuuuume" type.
I think anyone could easily argue that instanced, and overly QoL'd games are actually the slop you are referring to. "Surely WoW will be good this expansion!"
And no, I don't care if they sold well. I care if it's shit or not. It's not in my interest as a consumer to care if a game sells well if it does nothing that interests me. I would rather they try and fail at something compelling rather than just make another copypasta MMO.
moonarchia
The Scientific Shitlord
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In the real world whether it sells well determines its longevity. I'm not going to put time and effort into something that is going to get shut down in just a couple years or a couple months. And lack of instancing guarantees a game is going to be shit. Having 1-2 guilds monopolizing everything worth farming is one of the guaranteed death loops for an MMO. The poopsockers in those guilds will be the only ones paying for subs in very short order, and they are not numerous enough to keep a game afloat. This isn't 1999 anymore. There are dozens of other games that want your money and are willing to give you a game where you are the hero, not the zero.
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Pasteton
Vyemm Raider
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Too many confident cowboys in here also resorting to personal insults when you contest anything they say.
there’s like, not a single person I can think of in this thread that’s actually played the game for decent chunk of time, that is doomering it. That is really all anyone needs to know, and also avoids the need to read kiruns blog on mmo deving that he’s generating here
there’s like, not a single person I can think of in this thread that’s actually played the game for decent chunk of time, that is doomering it. That is really all anyone needs to know, and also avoids the need to read kiruns blog on mmo deving that he’s generating here
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Quaid
Trump's Staff
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Kithani
Vyemm Raider
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I mean I agree with you depending on how you want to define “decent chunk of time” I’ve prob spent 10-30 hours playing it and wasn’t a huge fan. I think I’ve skipped the rest of the play tests since last Summer. If you’re talking about dudes who play 40+ hours each test then I mean no shit they probably like the game lol
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Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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If you think the game is great, awesome. Play it. But the moment someone questions whether nostalgia-driven friction mechanics and anti-discoverability strategies make sense in 2026, suddenly it's "blogging," "doomering," or "personal attacks."
You can't demand discussion and then clutch pearls when it's not applause.
You can't demand discussion and then clutch pearls when it's not applause.
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Lodi
Blackwing Lair Raider
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No pearl clutching here. I'm disagreeing with a lot of the claims that are being made by the people being called doomers. I don't actually think launching a successful game is as easy as "instances mean x, therefore". I think it's extremely hard to tell why exactly some things sell and others don't and referencing one of the most successful games ever, a game that no MMO has touched the success of, is the only metric we can point to.
If being at the success level of a WoW or FF14 is the only way an MMO can make it, then old school fans of the genre are pretty fucked either way.
To me this game is kind of a hail mary. We never actually got an EQ sequel. Pantheon was not fuckin EQ, it had way too much WoW and EQ2 in it. The odds are definitely against it, though. I don't disagree with that.
If being at the success level of a WoW or FF14 is the only way an MMO can make it, then old school fans of the genre are pretty fucked either way.
To me this game is kind of a hail mary. We never actually got an EQ sequel. Pantheon was not fuckin EQ, it had way too much WoW and EQ2 in it. The odds are definitely against it, though. I don't disagree with that.
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yerm
Avatar of War Slayer
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The social elements that used to be in the mmo sphere have migrated to those microtransaction-riddled clash of clanes cloned base building games with endless bells, whistles, minigames, and bullshit. They're built to milk their whales by having a platform with tons of people swimming nearby engaging socially during timed events with the kind of low-floor high-ceiling skill design that games like eq had, but with massive p2w tossed over it. This is where the new generation of "MMO players" reside.
An MMO like WOW or FF14 but recreated with modern tools is never going to get the reception that literal WOW and FF14 had back when they released. That ship has sailed.
An MMO like WOW or FF14 but recreated with modern tools is never going to get the reception that literal WOW and FF14 had back when they released. That ship has sailed.
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Kaines
Potato Supreme
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Calling EQ "old school" is like calling Super Mario Bros 1 "old school." It was only that because that is what the technology at the time could allow. Technology has moved WAY past what both EQ and SMB1 were made of. Instancing / phasing / world design have all had MASSIVE technological improvements since then. And complaining that no one makes games like any more when the technology has left both games in the fucking dust is moronic in the highest.
Do people still love to play SMB1? Absolutely. Hell I love to play FF1 still. But I know for damn sure there will never be a game that looks or feels like FF1 ever again. The technology / market / game design has simply moved on.
People wanting a commercially viable EQ clone in 2026 are just delusional.
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Quaid
Trump's Staff
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I don’t think instancing outside of raids is required as long as significant quests for zone access (keys), and character progression (spells, class defining gear) aren’t gated behind single rare spawns tha are easily locked down.
Even then, as long as everything is tradable you’re probably fine.
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Kaines
Potato Supreme
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I agree. The idea for instances / phases is simply to allow everyone that pays their $15 a month to experience ALL the game has to offer. Getting locked out of content simply because you didn't join the correct poopsock guild is unacceptable in 2026. But that doesn't mean you should never see anyone beyond your own group.
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Flobee
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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My 2c about the perceived design mistakes being presented is fairly simple. Let them design the core of the game by the tenets that create something we all recognize as EQ, or EQ like which is after all what the majority of us have been wanting for 20+ years. Feel free to quibble on the details of that but you can surely understand what I'm trying to say.
These "dumb" or "obsolete" design decisions actually create very specific constraints that have very specific effect. It doesn't matter WHY older games did them, the fact is they had results that this crowd broadly enjoyed. IMO create a game using those constraints, THEN design around the issues that crop up. Assuming a actively developed game can ONLY tread down the identical path that EQ used is silly. As I've said before in this thread we've all experienced the evolution of the genre taking the WoW route to solving the issue. I'm personally open to seeing a completely different approach to solving these issues. I can think of a number of ways around these bottlenecks that don't include the prescribed methods our resident experts are demanding.
The entire point of approaching development the way they have is to retain the ability to experiment and do "what they want" without being beholden to investors or a board. Maybe it will suck, maybe it will rock(tm), but most of you are completely missing the point.
By all means keep doom posting if thats how you want to spend your time, but you're being nearly as intelligent nor insightful as you seem to think you are. As a group you're midcurving this super hard.
These "dumb" or "obsolete" design decisions actually create very specific constraints that have very specific effect. It doesn't matter WHY older games did them, the fact is they had results that this crowd broadly enjoyed. IMO create a game using those constraints, THEN design around the issues that crop up. Assuming a actively developed game can ONLY tread down the identical path that EQ used is silly. As I've said before in this thread we've all experienced the evolution of the genre taking the WoW route to solving the issue. I'm personally open to seeing a completely different approach to solving these issues. I can think of a number of ways around these bottlenecks that don't include the prescribed methods our resident experts are demanding.
The entire point of approaching development the way they have is to retain the ability to experiment and do "what they want" without being beholden to investors or a board. Maybe it will suck, maybe it will rock(tm), but most of you are completely missing the point.
By all means keep doom posting if thats how you want to spend your time, but you're being nearly as intelligent nor insightful as you seem to think you are. As a group you're midcurving this super hard.
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Kaines
Potato Supreme
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Sweet. Post them and we can discuss them. Since this is a DISCUSSION board after all...... Regale us with your wisdom and game design brilliance.
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Gravel
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I got into the alpha and that's when I decided the game wasn't great. I enjoyed the hell out of the limited playtests and assumed once I got into the alpha I'd play the shit out of it. Yeah, turns out, the game is way too rough around the edges and when I had unlimited playtime for it, I decided I didn't actually want to play it anymore.
Flobee
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Need to step away for a bit, but here is a quick one. Take classic EQ, you have Fear, Hate, Sky, Naggy, and Vox. So your entire raiding community is competing over these spots. Very simplified version is 2-3x the amount of targets and limit the ability to move a raidforce quickly via world size. Design teleport system in a way where you're not going to mobilize your entire force in sub 30 minutes for each mob.
That alone is going to open up space for competition, its not going to give every single player a shot at raiding but thats not really the goal. Social stratification on a server does not have to be the enemy of designers. It can be a good thing for players to strive for gear they can't easily attain. Its ok for casuals to have casual gear and poopsockers to be superior to them in this context. Most of us are old and too busy to "win", thats totally fine IMO, even if you as an individual dont like that.
Combine this with changing how loot is dropped, incentivizing different activities in a way that looks different than EQ and you completely change the dynamic of how people are spending their "raiding" time. Its not bulletproof, but its just a simple example of how you can start to shift player behavior without neutering it. Worth remembering that the lead dev here was behind both PoP and LoY both of which implemented the kind of systems most of you are clamoring for. Its obviously something they've thought about, probably more than I have.
Also remember we're comparing this game to a "solved" game in EQ. Its not that you can't end up in the same space with this game with similar issues, but they do have time to react to it and adjust.
I love how all the doomers think the old core game loop was trash. Corpo speak if there ever is such a thing. I think the main issue these guys have is that they don't have the time to play it the way they want, thus they think if you don't do x or y the game will fail... for them. I could care less if they kept out instancing and other things as long as they have fun gameplay, which to me the game already has.
Kaines
Potato Supreme
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Throwing more content at the problem has already been proven to not work. Players mow through content FAR faster than developers can even HOPE to produce it. Unless you are a fan of AI slop. This "solution" has already been tested and discarded as a losing strategy. The only way for this to work is to build a world SO LARGE that you don't even see most other people playing (EVE). Which destroys the "community" aspect of the entire game you guys are CLAIMING you want.
Care to try again?
Kaines
Potato Supreme
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Sweet. So you are going to single-handedly pay for all the developers / infrastructure needed to keep the game alive? I envy your wealth, good sir.
If not, then I suggest you think beyond your own personal interests and think about what will create a COMMERCIALLY VIABLE product that enough people want to play actually keep the game alive.
RobXIII
Urinal Cake Consumption King
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You are arguing that players mow through content faster than developers produce it. But I think the discussion is about spawn monopolization, and not players getting bored with raid content. Making lots of options available for exp grinding and dungeons (multiple level appropriate dungeon options, raid zone options) with some travel time between it can make an instance-less game work. Of course you always have super in demand items getting monopolized. Think how Jboots were in EQ1 before they changed it to a quest. A line out the door lol.
But yeah it's 2026, and I feel like I don't have time for the more punishing aspects of a game like hard CR, level loss, etc. EQ1 now lets you pay to fix a problem they caused: preventing level loss by paying more in your sub. Blech
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