People are free to shoot themselves in the dick all they want. I don't think it gives anyone the right to complain that the game isn't mario kart when literally everything about the game explains that hey... this isn't mario kart.
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Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO
- Thread starter Flobee
- Start date
Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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I mean they have literally zero paid employees at the moment. But you can bet i'll narc on faggots given the chance.
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People are not going to read their bullshit descriptions. They will see "Hey a new mmorog! Buy it and play it. Then they will just quit and you guys will be left with 400 RPers to play with. Like Pantheon is right now.
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Mrniceguy
Blackwing Lair Raider
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You honestly fell for that shit? No, they can, they choose not to.
Adding instances removes so many chance for emergent gameplay. No thx.
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Yeah such awesome emergent gameplay, sitting in a fucking corner pulling same 4 mobs over and over. Then someone trains your ass and takes your camp. No thx.
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moonarchia
The Scientific Shitlord
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The vast majority of players are carebears. Always been that way. That's why you have to keep that in mind when designing any MMO. If you don't, they aren't going to stay and pay. If there were enough PVP players to support a game, then there would be MMOs that succeeded that way. EVE is the only one in 30 years. I enjoyed the hell out of Warhammer Online, but even that died after a few years.
It is just another issue that leads back to why people play games. Everyone wants to be the hero. No one wants to be the zero. The biggest reason why instancing is needed is rooted in just that. Everyone who pays a sub deserves to be able to play every part of the game. You can't do that with camps being a thing in an open world game. You can blend things a bit, let everyone who hits a mob get loot and kill credit.
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Volume mostly. You can handwave all kinds of stuff when you numbers get big enough. Nameless bots and scammers look just as good on the big boys bottom line and their impact on "actual" customers is assuaged by posts saying they banned x many accounts. They can get by with ignoring it all doing a pr post and maybe sucking up some obvious candidates via some automated tooling. Paying actual people- nah. It's counter productive to the line go up on a quarterly report. I had plenty of GM tickets on wow just get closed. I and most of guild ended up quitting because the game got aids, but none of them ever quit after Blizz "the small indy company" completely botched or ignored their ticket/report.
Now i expect that the m&m population will be actually be small enough at the start that customer service can't be just a line item. It's telling that they've been talking up their CS dashboards and tools for a bit now. That's going to have an outsized influence early on. Especially if they mean to enforce their ingame camp rules etc.
Not that I particularly expect it to happen, but on the off chance it is a huge success- scaling that is going to be rough.
I've done that. I've done that soo many times. There are 100s of games that provide that. There will be 100s more that believe in this weird everyone gets a shot commie utopia. I have zero interest in paying for everyone gets a wack at it again. You cannot be the hero tier if you didn't struggle for it. If you cannot fail the challenge is insulting. Therefore i'm willing to pay for this game for a change.
*i'm not that motivated really, but just instance it bro makes my motivation to even try negative.
moonarchia
The Scientific Shitlord
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If there are better ways to get rid of soft pvp and allow everyone to take part in the game, I would love to see them. Adding instances doesn't regulate anything other than making the content accessible. You can make a grindy as fuck game while having instances. FFXIV top tier raiding is like this, and a lot of mog maxxing in that game as well.
The hero fantasy is the major driving force in MMOs, so you do have to make most of that available. Everyone wants to slay the dragons. Everyone wants to explore the world. Etc. Etc. Good game design enables that instead of hindering it.
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Here comes the "you must struggle in a game to have fun later" bit, lol. What If I just want to come home from work and just play a fucking game, not wallow in some misery and struggle bus so then I can feel great about some shiny I get a week later. And there isnt 100 games like that. Especially not mmorog, western ones that are not filled with stupid asian anime bullshit and grind fests and RL money sinks. Fucking commie ustopia, are you fucking serious here? Is this why you want dungeon camp lists, tons of downtime and dragging your dick through glass? Its a fucking game, to be enjoyed not by just a few but everyone that pays for the shit.
For me the near perfect experience was WoW up to a certain point. But man I played so much of that shit I cant do it anymore. Between the Live shit form 2004+ to multiple classic servers its just played out for me now. It had its faults too, but just for logging on for a few hours a day and getting some shit done it was perfect. And shit on it all you want, but at its peak it sported the greatest amount of people in the history of mmos. And the reason was simple, everyone could play the way they wanted. PvP, PVE, raid, dungeons, all available to you depending on what you wanted to do. Yep the McDonalds of mmos.
And this is not to say that this game needs to follow that formula, but if you think that todays players will stick around in a game that drags your dick through glass, well there might be a few but its not something I wanna do.
For me the near perfect experience was WoW up to a certain point. But man I played so much of that shit I cant do it anymore. Between the Live shit form 2004+ to multiple classic servers its just played out for me now. It had its faults too, but just for logging on for a few hours a day and getting some shit done it was perfect. And shit on it all you want, but at its peak it sported the greatest amount of people in the history of mmos. And the reason was simple, everyone could play the way they wanted. PvP, PVE, raid, dungeons, all available to you depending on what you wanted to do. Yep the McDonalds of mmos.
And this is not to say that this game needs to follow that formula, but if you think that todays players will stick around in a game that drags your dick through glass, well there might be a few but its not something I wanna do.
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I like ff14 as a mostly single player game. I subbed to it for like 9 years and played for like 2.5 because i liked what it was doing before it homogenized the fuck out of all the classes and the story fell off the rails. But that's a different topic.
I'm saying I agree with the design of the game they are making. I disagree that everyone is entitled to see 100% of the game they are making without engaging in the game community and the meta rules of whatever server they are on. If all you need to do is grind and click on instance. Hard pass at this point.
The sub fee entitles you to login and play the game to the best of your ability- that's it. I'm willing to pay for that.
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Nahh the game does not need per group instances like WOW had them, it does not need a dungeon finder, cross realm BS, it does not need PvP instances or anything like that. I will just settle for instanced community shards. Thats all im asking for. Lets face it, content in this game will be at a premium. These guys cannot and will not churn out content like EQ did or WOW did in its prime.
moonarchia
The Scientific Shitlord
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They won't be putting out content like EQ or WOW ever did at any point in their existence. Instancing is one of the few ways they would be able to extend the reach and utility of what little content they can squeak out. But that would require thinking about the game as a product for actual customers instead of a passion project for a handful of people who won't be around in 6 months.
Del
Potato del Grande
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The mini dungeons in this game can handle like 4-6 groups of people. We'll see what dungeons like Fallen Watch will bring, but I'm sure it'll be much more than that. 6 months after launch there will probably be enough end game camps for hundreds of players. I also already know of at least 5 or 6 end game raid targets and I'm not nearly as well in the know as some of the guilds who've been playing Alpha every day. Plus there will be an expedition at launch and possibly another one in Module 1 which are essentially entire zones dedicated to end game content.
I remember logging into EQ with 2k or more on a server and at a time when that game has less end game content than this will at EA launch and people weren't logging out out of boredom.
People still underestimate the content in this game. This game is not like Pantheon. There's a lot to do.
Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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The idea that billion-dollar studios with legal departments, proprietary anti-cheat tech, full-time security engineers, and direct relationships with platform holders are just sitting there twirling their mustaches choosing not to ban bots is peak Reddit brain. They don't "choose not to." They fight it constantly and still lose ground because it's an arms race and botters constantly adapt. They spoof hardware IDs, virtualize, rotate IPs, human-assist, test enforcement patterns, etc. They operate like businesses because they quite literally are businesses. Most of these operations are located in India, Russia, China, etc. where they make more money bot farming than they do wanting to jump out of a window by working at a Foxconn plant.
If Amazon, Blizzard, Jagex, Pearl Abyss, etc. - companies with actual infrastructure and dedicated anti-fraud teams struggle to contain it, what exactly is the plan for a small indie MMO team asking for funding to hire their first full-time staff?
"Trust us bro, we'll handle it, police it, and enforce it 24/7." With what? Two Discord mods?
You can believe big studios sometimes tolerate gray-market behavior for monetization reasons. That's a fair conversation. But pretending they could fully eradicate botting at scale and just choose not to is naive. It ignores the technical reality of how sophisticated modern RMT operations are. If your argument is that a small team will somehow out-police multinational studios because they "care more"... well I guess that's par for the course in the blind faith optimism (delusion) so many seem to share here.
And when the first mage army is camping every high-value spawn 24/7, I'm sure we'll hear how it's actually part of the "old school experience."
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This must be that "emergent" game play they keep talking about.
One thing for certain people will break your game. In ways you probably never even thought of. They always do.